Complete Scoundrel Here

[Sir Brennen]

Sure,
It utterly negates trip attacks. That's what makes wolves and worgs so powerful. It would be like having a feat that negates grapple attacks. Certain monsters (chokers for example) get a
lot weaker.

Again... once per encounter. Many of the trip monsters/characters will just knock the trickie character back down again, and he won't be flipping back up this time. I don't see how that "utterly negates" trip attacks, especially with pack tactics creatures like the ones you mention.

 

[Fingers Boggis]

I had a look but I couldn't see my question answered anywhere. Can anyone give a bit more detail on the cloaked dancer PrC? It sounds like the ideal finish to my bardic dervish I'm looking to roll up for a new campaign.

I'm sure I'll get some use out of some of the skill tricks as well but right now its the class progression I'm trying to put together
Fingers

 

[Felon]

Cool. I've been of the opinion for _years_ that rerolls shouldn't be restricted only to clerics with the Luck domain.

Now that you mention it, there's a luck feat called Third Time's a Charm that lets you expend a luck reroll to reroll the reroll granted by the luck domain ability!

 

[Felon]

Sure,
It utterly negates trip attacks. That's what makes wolves and worgs so powerful. It would be like having a feat that negates grapple attacks. Certain monsters (chokers for example) get a lot weaker.

Y'know, it's only Sunday, but this is a good contender for Weakest Arguement of the Week. There actually is a feat that protects a character against Improved Grapple monsters: Close Quarters Combat in the Complete Warrior.

Yes, it makes grappling monsters less effective against that particular character. That's the whole point of the feat. Just as fear-causing monsters are less effective against paladins and monsters laying down area-effect damage attacks are less effective against characters with the evasion ability. There are many class features, feats, magic items, spells, and now skill tricks that grant defenses against certain types of attacks. Should we remove defenses from the game because it makes some attacks less powerful?

 

[Victim]

Sure,
It utterly negates trip attacks. That's what makes wolves and worgs so powerful. It would be like having a feat that negates grapple attacks. Certain monsters (chokers for example) get a lot weaker.

<Chumbawamba>
I get knocked down. But I get up again. You're never going to keep me down.
</Chumbawamba>
Mark

Trip -> (Auto stand) -> Improved Trip attack: Trip -> Improved Trip attack. Way to go auto stand ability! Even an attacker with only 1 attack (like wolf) can retrip the character in the same round with improved trip.

Moreover, by the time the trick is available (9th level), wolves aren't so powerful.

The cloaked dancer is a 5 level class that has a few magical dances that can entrance or disturb viewers, and then gets a few sneak attack-esque bonus dice on those targets. Amusingly, the art for the PrC includes no cloak.

 

[brehobit]

Again... once per encounter. Many of the trip monsters/characters will just knock the trickie character back down again, and they won't be flipping back up this time. I don't see how that "utterly negates" trip attacks, especially with pack tactics creatures like the ones you mention.

Sure. But that's still huge IMO. A wolf/worg has a heck of a time A) getting a hit, B) getting the trip off. Say 1 in 8 attacks against a fighter type of around level 5. (AC 21, STR 16 has a >20% chance of being tripped by a worg, >7% by a wolf). Getting up out of that is very very handy. Being able to do it before your action (so you didn't even get tripped) basically negates a certain type of attack, once per encounter.

That would be a somewhat weak feat (I'd say twice/encounter would be reasonable). But for 2 skill points? It's nothing.

Same thing with the charge and the other stuff. 2 skill points, to a lot of character (rogue, swordsage, warblade, bard, ranger, barbarian) is pretty much nothing compared to a feat. Does a -2 to your least-used skill you have points in really balance *any* useful combat maneuver? Maybe for some builds, but not one I've ever seen.

That their is a limit on how may tricks you can have indicates the designers were worried people might grab a huge set of them.

They are "weak feats" but very powerful in the right situations, and nearly free for many classes/builds. Limited to 1/day, I'd still call them too much. Perhaps if each use cost an action point or something...

IMO this is moving into the "skills-and-powers" issues of 2nd edition. One could argue that no one thing in Skills and Powers was broken. But building a hugely powerful character (compared to the core books) was VERY easy. The same thing is happening with Bo9S, Complete Mage, and now CS.

A character with DR 5/cold iron at 6th level (which I will have when the party levels up again) is huge. The ability to flank from any angle (which a character can do in my party right now) is huge (+2 to everyone that attacks them). Core characters really have a hard time being useful when others are using lots of books to build. I view these tricks as another step in that direction.

Mark

 

[Harm]

You have an odd definition of "ease"--one that doesn't match up with any lexicon you're liable find in any library. Getting back up is enormously costly (move action, plus suffer an attack of opportunity), and fighting while down is extremely disadvantageous (-4 to attack, +4 to attacks made against you).

A move action to stand up is ease in anyone's dictionary.

OTOH, the Improved Trip guy is knocking you down mere by making a touch attack and an opposed check with a +4 bonus, and then getting a free attack automatically on that poor prone schlep. Please, explain to us where the mitigating give-and-take is happening here.

Your description is appropriate for an epic fighter tripping a kobold, it's not how the game actualy plays out however. If your character can easily trip the opponent, in most cases the opponent is seriously overmatched and could be beaten any number of ways.

An 8th level fighter with 16 str and improved trip vs. a CR9 Vrock is almost twice as likely to land himself prone as the Vrock. Even with enlarge person it's only a little more likely the Vrock will be prone instead of the fighter.

On evenly matched opponents Improved Trip turns a basically useless combat option into a risky maneuver that can backfire, but can have a potentially worthwhile payoff. A move action to stand back up is not excessive.

 

[chaotix42]

Y'know, it's only Sunday, but this is a good contender for Weakest Arguement of the Week. There actually is a feat that protects a character against Improved Grapple monsters: Close Quarters Combat in the Complete Warrior.

My wood elf barbarian got a CQC AoO off on a fire giant trying to grapple him, and ending up getting a critical hit. Hello grapple check of 148!

 

[Remathilis]

I had a look but I couldn't see my question answered anywhere. Can anyone give a bit more detail on the cloaked dancer PrC? It sounds like the ideal finish to my bardic dervish I'm looking to roll up for a new campaign.

I'm sure I'll get some use out of some of the skill tricks as well but right now its the class progression I'm trying to put together
Fingers

I'm working PURELY off the top of my head, someone can come and correct me.

You need ranks in perform dance (10?) and something else.

Five levels, d6 hd, 4 sp.

You get caster levels (if you are a caster) at 2nd/4th level.

You can use different dances (1st: enthrall, 3: fatigue, 5: fear) on foes. It lasts for 1 minute + con mod, IIRC.

At 2nd/4th level, you can deal +1d6/+2d6 damage to any foe who is watching you dance. In all other ways, its like a SA.

Its definitely a fun class. I have an NPC waiting to use it somewhere...

 

[brehobit]

Y'know, it's only Sunday, but this is a good contender for Weakest Arguement of the Week. There actually is a feat that protects a character against Improved Grapple monsters: Close Quarters Combat in the Complete Warrior.

Yes, it makes grappling monsters less effective against that particular character. That's the whole point of the feat. Just as fear-causing monsters are less effective against paladins and monsters laying down area-effect damage attacks are less effective against characters with the evasion ability. There are many class features, feats, magic items, spells, and now skill tricks that grant defenses against certain types of attacks. Should we remove defenses from the game because it makes some attacks less powerful?

You are correct on the feat, I had a PC who had it, you'd think I'd remember.

That said, being able to ignore one successful grapple 1/combat for 2 skill points would be pretty nice (Edit: by "pretty nice" I mean "an option anyone would take and thus overpowered")