Complete Scoundrel Here

[brehobit]

This is an overblown, irrational reaction The tricks provide no direct bonuses to attack, AC, or damage, and they can be used only once per encounter (or once per minute outside of initiative). In short, if a trick beats out a feat, then we're talking about a seriously lousy feat there.

Ah, I'd not noticed the limit. That helps some. Still _darn_ handy for 2 skill points.

Using the example you discuss, the twisted charge trick, there is a feat in Complete Warrior that allows a character to change direction while charging: Fleet of Foot. Since it can be used every round, it's clearly providing a superior benefit.

True. But at a much lower cost.

The most powerful trick I see are the couple that let a character avoid an attack of opportunity when standing up, and folks I gotta tell ya, the lack of options faced by a character fighting a tripmonger in D&D has always been rather lame.

Agreed. But I'd rather have either a tumble check with a reasonable DC -or- a full-round action that doesn't provoke then something which is limited to those with tumble...

Mark

 

[Nightfall]

Woot! Thanks!

Yeah well my inner Scoundrel thanks you. I doubt my finances will.

 

[blargney the second]

I gotta tell ya, the lack of options faced by a prone character versue the ease with which a tripmonger can tip a character over and the benefits he enjoys for doing so have been way out of whack for a looong time.

We changed standing up from prone to a move action that doesn't provoke AoOs. Solved a lot of problems for us.

 

[BryonD]

and they can be used only once per encounter (or once per minute outside of initiative).

That is a good point that I think I have not been really keeping in mind when reading these.

 

[Harm]

Using the example you discuss, the twisted charge trick, there is a feat in Complete Warrior that allows a character to change direction while charging: Fleet of Foot. Since it can be used every round, it's clearly providing a superior benefit.

I would say it would trump that feat due to it's cost. Chargeing more than once in an encounter is rare, and rarer still that there isn't a straight line to the target so the restriction of once per encounter really isn't a restriction. Most of the fault in this case however is that the feat is underpowered and no PC would ever take it. Twisted Charge isn't one of the more powerful tricks in my mind.

Something like Twisted Charge, and most of the tricks, would be better handled as an opposed role or high DC roll you don't have to spend skill points on specifically, and you don't have to add another 20 block section to your player sheet to keep track of.

The most powerful trick I see are the couple that let a character avoid an attack of opportunity when standing up, and for those who haven't figured it out yet, I gotta tell ya, the lack of options faced by a prone character versue the ease with which a tripmonger can tip a character over and the benefits he enjoys for doing so have been way out of whack for a looong time.

Being prone in DnD is, wire-fu movies aside, nowhere near as penalizeing as it would be in an actual fight. Imagine wearing 50 pounds of plate armour, not even able to move most of your joints half their normal rotation, having a 3 pound sword in one hand, a 5 pound shield and a torch in another, another 50 pounds of backpack and quiver on, potion vials (that miraculously don't explode when you fall), daggers, sacks, crossbow and other things on your belt... you think getting up can even be done let alone done in 3 seconds easily? Think again. The ease of tripping (for those that have the improved trip feat anyway) is pretty much mitigated by the ease of getting back up or fighting while down. The only complaint I have on the situation is the DC of 35 for tumble to get back up as a swift action is probably too high, and heavy armour penalties are too low.

 

[Sir Brennen]

For the sake of discussion, I'm going to put the Twisted Charge trick up:

Prerequisite: Balance 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks
Benefit: When you charge, you can make one turn of up to 90 degrees during your movement. You can't move more than your speed as part of this charge. All other restrictions on charges still apply, and you must have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn.

So note that you actually have to invest 12 skill points total (2 for trick + 10 for prereqs), can't move as far as a normal charge, can't charge around a blind corner, and can only do this once per encounter.

Powerful as a feat? Overpowered for the investment? I don't think so. Note that if the prereqs are cross-class skills, the investment is even higher.

For the record, in our current game, my scout and another fighter PC often make charges two or three times during an encounter, sometimes more in a widely spread battle.

 

[Felon]

I would say it would trump that feat due to it's cost.

If you can come up with 5 ranks in Balance and Tumble easily, then Twisted Charge has an advantage over Fleet of Foot that offsets the disadvantages it has. And come to think of it, it's not even that light a cost. 5 ranks in both Balance and Tumble, plus 2 more coughed up for the trick is no small thing for most characters. Many would find it a lot easier to cough up a feat for Run to meet the Fleet of Foot prereq.

As to charging or being denied a charge due to the straight-line rule, I don't think anyone's fit to say how common it is in everyone else's game. In my experience, I see charge lines blocked all the time--usually by another attacker who got there first.

The ease of tripping (for those that have the improved trip feat anyway) is pretty much mitigated by the ease of getting back up or fighting while down.

You have an odd definition of "ease"--one that doesn't match up with any lexicon you're liable find in any library. Getting back up is enormously costly (move action, plus suffer an attack of opportunity), and fighting while down is extremely disadvantageous (-4 to attack, +4 to attacks made against you). OTOH, the Improved Trip guy is knocking you down mere by making a touch attack and an opposed check with a +4 bonus, and then getting a free attack automatically on that poor prone schlep. Please, explain to us where the mitigating give-and-take is happening here.

 

[Felon]

True. But at a much lower cost.

As stated, it's not that low, even for a rogue. Sure, 5 ranks in Tumble is a lock, but Balance is largely a wash skill. Certainly the cost is inconvenient for a fighter, barbarian, paladin, and most other "chargey" types.

Agreed. But I'd rather have either a tumble check with a reasonable DC -or- a full-round action that doesn't provoke then something which is limited to those with tumble...

As would I. Or better yet, a Balance or Jump check to increase the marketability of those skills.

 

[brehobit]

As stated, it's not that low, even for a rogue. Sure, 5 ranks in Tumble is a lock, but Balance is largely a wash skill. Certainly the cost is inconvenient for a fighter, barbarian, paladin, and most other "chargey" types.

Turns out its really easy for a swordsage and I think a warblade (pretty sure balance is on their skill list).

Also, one thing of interest. The quick stand "trick" is an immediate action. That's HUGE. I think it has 12 ranks of tumble as a prereq, so again, not something a tank will likely be doing. But very powerful indeed.

Mark

 

[hong]

Turns out its really easy for a swordsage and I think a warblade (pretty sure balance is on their skill list).

But the feat will be much easier for a fighter or any class with lots of bonus feats. Different classes have different costs involved, depending on what crunchy bits they have. I still don't really see what the problem is.

Also, one thing of interest. The quick stand "trick" is an immediate action. That's HUGE. I think it has 12 ranks of tumble as a prereq, so again, not something a tank will likely be doing. But very powerful indeed.

I see this as a patch for the idiotic change that 3.5E made to the standing-up rule.