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Complex fighter pitfalls

I am really not opposed to different "beeing set on fire"...
but something where a save is the only option is something i consider bad for the immersion.
I really like the 3.x approach here.

And If someone effected by something is always ended by a save, you just don´s think about it anymore. It is just: "oh, I am stunnded and can´t do anything."
Instead of: "I am held by spiritual shackles. May I try to break them with pure force?" DM: "Make a strenght check as your only action this turn"

edit: it is one of the few things that really rub me wrong in 4e. Actually, I used a loophole of the rules to make a safe before your move action if you are just immobilized: "ready an action to move after the end of your turn, with the trigger: as soon as I can move again" Before, i thought about using the heal skill on yourself, but that is actually not possible by raw...
 

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Grydan

First Post
[MENTION=59057]UngeheuerLich[/MENTION]

While your readying approach certainly would work, I'm not sure that that's a loophole. After all, you're sacrificing a standard action in order to do it.

The more common reaction when characters are immobilized, in my experience, is for them to shrug and either attack something in melee, or switch to a ranged attack. I don't think it would ever occur to any of my players to give up an attack for the ability to walk somewhere.

Being restrained by something is usually presented in 4E as an Escape attempt (Athletics vs. Fortitude or Acrobatics vs. Reflex, as a move action), not a Save Ends effect.
 

Too bad, it is not. Some physically immobilizing things do actually immoblize. It gets better in later books, but early on i encountered many such effects (kobold slinger IIRC)
 

pemerton

Legend
I don´t need a power that sets someone on fire to tell me, how I get rid off it. Beeing on fire needs to be a condition, that ends, if I do something against it.

<snip>

you know, 1d6 damage (if not otherwise noted) and you need to roll on the floor and make a dexterity check to put it off (against DC 10 if not noted otherwise).
In 4e, at least, that would make "setting on fire" irrelevant above Heroic tier.

If someone effected by something is always ended by a save, you just don´s think about it anymore. It is just: "oh, I am stunnded and can´t do anything."
Instead of: "I am held by spiritual shackles. May I try to break them with pure force?" DM: "Make a strenght check as your only action this turn"
Nothing in 4e precludes this - it even gives indicative DCs! And the Escape action, plus Heal checks for bonus saves, as precedents.

A fighter that sets someone on fire should not have to take a feat to be able at all.
And they don't. This came up in my game fairly recently:

Meanwhile, the PC tiefling paladin <snip> heard a clanking sound coming from the foothills near the tower and saw a phalanx of hobgoblin soldiers quick-marching down the hillside towards him. So he decided to cast Bless Weapon and stay put to defend the tower, the books and the party's rear.

The paladin pushed back the phalanx - which I had statted up as a Huge 13th level swarm - with the Strength of Ten (from his Questing Knight paragon path), but they surged back and surrounded him (using their swarm ability to enter enemy's spaces). And he also found himself under fire from hobgoblin archers hiding in the rocky ground at the base of the hills (8 14th lvl minions).

But even as the hobgoblins pressed their attack <snip> the ranger was able to turn his attention back toward the Bloodtower. He used his Fiery Burst Greatbow to set one corner of the phalanx on fire. The paladin was also caught in the blast, but was able to ignore the fire damage (due to being a tiefling). But he took advantage of the fact that he was on fire to try and set more hobgoblins alight as he attacked with his sword from the middle of the phalanx. (I adjudicated this as him granting combat advantage as he attacked with wild abandon, and being able to make a skill check - maybe Intimidate? - to deal additional fire damage.)
 

pemerton

Legend
Regarding the debate about simple fighters and simple wizards: the wizard will always be more complicated than the fighter, all other things presumed equal. The fighter can swing a sword and shoot a bow. The wizard can do these also, and he may use magic on top of this.
In OD&D, B/X, and AD&D this wasn't true. The wizard couldn't swing a sword or shoot a bow.
 

pemerton

Legend
I don't think 4e works against this sort of play, and probably allows it easier than previous editions of D&D. However, I also don't think that it is inherently supported by the mechanics (something we probably disagree on). To me, producing an "interesting story" has much more to do with GM fiat than with any rules in any edition of the game.

<snip>

Now, obviously, 4e can use its mechanics to give narrative control to its players. You even extend that to skill challenges and not solely powers, for example. However, the skill challenge mechanics themselves don't support this style of play, even if they don't fight against it. They weren't designed, in my opinion, with the goal of player narrative control. They were designed to keep everyone involved and useful during (mostly) non-combat events, and to give a solid framework for adjudicating success or failure in those events (with complications arising and the fiction moving forward as a result).

And, while that's a useful tool, it's not like Neonchameleon's disguise power from Spirit of the Century
When I talk about 4e supporting narrativist play and "story now", I'm not talking about funky "narrative control" techniques like the SotC mechanic you and Neonchameleon have referenced. Those sorts of tecniques aren't essential to narrativist play (HeroWars/Quest doesn't have them, and nor does Burning Wheel) and they aren't a guarantee of it either - they could equally suit a certain sort of high-concept simulationism.

I'm talking about player agency, so that the choices made by players actually shape the plot and the thematic content of the game - the "standard narrativistic model", to borrow a phrase from Eero Tuovinen. 4e has a number of features that support this sort of play. One of them is the express incorporation of the thematcially-laden mythical and historical content of the default setting into the PC build options - so, for example, when a player choose to play a dwarf, they're also choosing to play a PC whose people freed themselves from slavery at the hands of the giants, who were in turn agents of creation and recreation. And this is compelemented by the comparable incorporation of the same content into many (not all) monster and NPC descritions.

Another such feature is the way in which its action resolution mechanics push towards rather than away from this stuff, and support rather than hinder player agency, in part by supporting rather than hindering GM adjudication that builds on and develops from the players' choices, rather than locking them down and constraining them. Skill challengs are an obvious example of this, but my own experience with the combat mechanics has shown me that they have the same character.

Not everyone sees 4e in this sort of way. And even for some who like this sort of play an can see how 4e might help deliver it, 4e's mechanics might seem pretty clunky (I can remember a comment to a RPG.net review of HeroQuest revised favourably comparing HQ's past/fail cycle to the far more convoluted sysmtem of DC setting and encounter pacing in 4e). And that's all fair enough.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
When I talk about 4e supporting narrativist play and "story now", I'm not talking about funky "narrative control" techniques like the SotC mechanic you and Neonchameleon have referenced. Those sorts of tecniques aren't essential to narrativist play (HeroWars/Quest doesn't have them, and nor does Burning Wheel) and they aren't a guarantee of it either - they could equally suit a certain sort of high-concept simulationism.
I'm not talking about Forge narrative play, either. I dislike its definition (I much prefer the G/D/S definitions to G/N/S). I'm talking about player control over the story in a "here, use this meta mechanic, and make the story happen this way" sort of thing.
I'm talking about player agency, so that the choices made by players actually shape the plot and the thematic content of the game - the "standard narrativistic model", to borrow a phrase from Eero Tuovinen. 4e has a number of features that support this sort of play. One of them is the express incorporation of the thematcially-laden mythical and historical content of the default setting into the PC build options - so, for example, when a player choose to play a dwarf, they're also choosing to play a PC whose people freed themselves from slavery at the hands of the giants, who were in turn agents of creation and recreation. And this is compelemented by the comparable incorporation of the same content into many (not all) monster and NPC descritions.
This, to me, goes back to the average person picking an elf and wanting to be involved with "elf things". What you're describing is exploring some sort of theme based on setting flavor, and while 4e doesn't fight against it, I don't see it forcing itself into play mechanically (except in combat, where some mechanical implements are used to express certain features of races).
Another such feature is the way in which its action resolution mechanics push towards rather than away from this stuff, and support rather than hinder player agency, in part by supporting rather than hindering GM adjudication that builds on and develops from the players' choices, rather than locking them down and constraining them. Skill challengs are an obvious example of this, but my own experience with the combat mechanics has shown me that they have the same character.
I've already covered my thoughts on skill challenges. If you disagree with it, can you explain which parts you disagree with?
Not everyone sees 4e in this sort of way. And even for some who like this sort of play an can see how 4e might help deliver it, 4e's mechanics might seem pretty clunky (I can remember a comment to a RPG.net review of HeroQuest revised favourably comparing HQ's past/fail cycle to the far more convoluted sysmtem of DC setting and encounter pacing in 4e). And that's all fair enough.
Yes, I was commenting that 4e doesn't particularly fight against player control (which can be expressed via skill challenges, if one plays the game that way), but it doesn't support player control of making a story "interesting" inherently. In 4e, there are instances of "here, use this meta mechanic, and make the story happen this way", but they're almost universally expressed via combat. And, while combat is highly important to progressing the story, an "interesting story" needs to be built outside of combat to give any individual combat meaning (by developing NPCs, having a plot, evolving the setting, etc.).

So, 4e inherently has some player control over an "interesting story", but mostly within the confines of combat. You can use mechanics like skill challenges to grant more control, but it's not inherent to 4e (see my previous post on this for more of my thoughts on it), like, say, the disguise ability from Spirit of the Century does. Thus, my comment that 4e doesn't fight against it, but that it doesn't inherently support it. As always, play what you like :)
 

pemerton

Legend
I'm not talking about Forge narrative play, either
I am. When I say that 4e is the best version of D&D for narrative play, I mean that in the Forge sense - it is the best version of D&D for player-driven thematically-laden play.

The reasons are those I gave above, and that you've seen me post 100 times!

With skill challenges, for example, because they have a finite duration in which the matter bust be decided, they let players bring matters to an end without endless check-mongering. And because the GM has to keep them alive for a certain time, and then bring them to a conclusion, they need the sort of metagaming adjudication techniques for the introduction of theme and complicatoin that underpin narrativistic approaches to GMing.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
JamesonCourage said:
I'm not talking about Forge narrative play, either
I am. When I say that 4e is the best version of D&D for narrative play, I mean that in the Forge sense - it is the best version of D&D for player-driven thematically-laden play.

The reasons are those I gave above, and that you've seen me post 100 times!
If that's the case, then I don't really see why you're replying to me. Like you've said, I've seen you post on this 100 times, and while I have no problem with your approach to play, you're commenting on something that I'm not discussing. So... okay, you're talking about that. I'm not. I'd rather not try continue a discussion on a topic when the other person isn't engaging it (and I assume you feel the same way). When the conversation turns to Forge-narrativist play -probably in another thread- I may pipe in and talk about it, then. My part in this conversation, though, isn't about that. As always, play what you like :)
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Choice reveals value.

From where I stand its all about making choices matter. For every action there must be meaningful trade offs. 4e, more than any edition of D&D encourages player agency because no resource in the game ever becomes trivial so players must engage each decision point with care.
  • In a skill challenge I have a limited number of actions in which to engage the situation. My checks become a precious commodity I must use with caution.
  • Each limited use power I have access to can be used once and only once within its given refresh cycle. Thus when I choose to use it lets me say something about my character.
  • I never receive so many limited use abilities that the use of one becomes trivial.
  • HP and damage math is skewed so that for nontrivial encounters hit points matter within the encounter. I've never seen a fight in 4e where no one comes close to zero hit points!
  • The implied fiction of the game makes meaningful statements about what it means to be a fighter, what it means to be a dragonborn, etc. Casual use of nonhumans is not seen in most 4e material. This is important to me.

Now I realize that the way I use 4e might not be the intent of the designers of the game, but I'm not really all that concerned with design intent. I'm concerned with the utility it provides me with. Frankly I'm pretty discouraged by the move back towards a game that trivializes individual choices.
 
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