Complex fighter pitfalls

Elric was a deliberate but loving deconstruction of Swords and Sorcery as it stood. He's the anti-Conan : sickly, civilized, a schemer, a sorcerer. Conan deals with the supernatural. Elric makes deals with the supernatural. The two types of swords and sorcery are as different as night and day.

We're not in disagreement at all here, this is a different type of sword and sorcery... but one I think high level D&D does tend to model (at least passably) well. IMO, of course. Also there are still other sword and sorcery heroes outside of Elric, like Corum, Kane the Immortal and Jirel of Joiry, who are not deconstructions of Conan but are still as powerful as mythic heroes through supernatural items, curses, pacts, etc.
 

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I don't think that was said already - because it isn't true.

"You can do anything you like, with quite bad chances" is about equivalent to saying "You can bounce round the dungeon on a pogo stick - you just won't do very well". So too with a grapple or disarm. An AoO is a fairly huge penalty in 3.X.



It doesn't. 4e monsters have immunities. Just not many of them. And whoever thought zombies should be immune to having their heads knocked off needs to go back to the drawing board.
isn´t it?

A disarm attempt is about 50-50 if you don´t receive the AoO. If it is reasonable is a matter of taste.
 

I don't think you can turn to Sword and Sorcery literature for an answer to combat styles in isolation--and then ignore the differences in skills in the characters. Anymore than you can turn to Sword and Sorcery for an implied "magic is ultra powerful stuff that can wreck a warrior's day" while ignoring that S&S wizards are often antagonists, using quite unheroic or even evil means to gain their power ... and get skewered rather rapidly as soon as they warrior gets a clear shot. :p

Again, I'm not trying to "answer" anything...

Plus, I don't think there are two broad fighter archetypes in literature, but a continuum. It's true that what we generally call S&S is more towards the naturalistic side of that continuum than the mythic, compared to other stories, but if you compared S&S to some of the more gritty, truly naturalistic tales, the shoe would be on the other foot.

Historical Gunslingler is to Maverick/Rooster Cogburn is to Pecos Bill ... as ... Historical Warrior is to Fafhrd is to Hercules.

The spot on the continuum dictates the style of the story, not only for the warrior but for the rest of the characters as well. That's why people have been saying that mundane fighter with mythic wizard doesn't really work.

Well of course there's a continuum, but for the sake of simplicity (and sanity) you can't cover every possibility. I think the two main camps (who often tend to cite Hercules or Conan), along with a high fantasy style camp... probably encompass the majority of D&D players and, for discussion sake, serve as a pretty good baseline since these seem to be, (again along with high fantasy), the major influences of D&D. The funny thing is that in most mythic fighter stories... the wizard isn't mythic, he's like a source of information or the fighter's sidekick... and usually not involved in combat at all... So according to your logic it would seem the mythic fighter wouldn't work either. Either way, I'm not sure I agree.
 

One of the things I really like about older versions of D&D was that there was a scale of difficulty. If you were new or wanted to play a fairly simple class, you could play a fighter, if you wanted complex you played a mage. In-between, you picked a cleric or thief. That said, even the fighters, in the campaigns I played in at least, were almost always able to hold their own against the other classes. I've been playing since 1977 and I guess I've been lucky in never having been in a campaign where the fighters in the group felt second fiddle to the other classes. Yes, there have been times were no one really wanted to play the cleric, but there has NEVER once been a time were at least several people didn't want to be a fighter. There has always been at least one person that wanted to play a thief and a mage as well.

Now having said that, I will admit that our group has added a few interesting moves to the fighter over the years. As I posted in another thread, fighters can burn Fatigue(HP's) to do extra damage if they so desire. The amount of Fatigue they burn determines how many extra die (d6) of damage they roll on an attack. The trade off and balancing factor is they are trading extra damage for reduced Stamina(hp). Burn too much Fatigue doing extra damage and you risk getting taken out by your opponent. It's given a little extra something to the fighters in the group for those that want it. Some players use it in almost every battle, others have never used it once in their characters career. It's a nice benefit that allows fighters to stay simple for those that want it.

Getting back to DnD in general though, as time progressed, things started getting added to all the classes to make everyone happy. In the end though it's made everyone too similar. It's impossible to make every class perfectly equal without removing what makes them unique. Look at computer games like WoW to see a perfect example of what happens when you try and make everyone happy and everyone perfectly the same power. You end up with everyone with similar abilities and almost no one happy. (please don't take the WoW reference to mean any particular version of DnD is like WoW, I am just using it as an example of what happens when you try and balance everything to perfection). The best games I've played in each class excels in certain areas, and it's up to the DM to make sure each player has thier turn to shine. Traps and Sneaking, talk to the thief, Need to take out the nasty orc chiefton, Fighter Joe please step up, and so on.

This isn't to say that only one class can and should shine in any given situation, but each class should have areas where they defiantly outshine the others, even if others can perform said actions as well. I think for a lot of players, everything boils down to combat. They want their character no matter what the class to be on par with everyone else in combat. If your DM runs a combat centered campaign, I can see where this might be at least understandable, but I would hope in a majority of campaigns, combat is just one aspect of whats going on during the course of the characters careers.

For me, what I would like to see in DnD next would be for them to go back to the core of the earlier editions and take a look at what made each class unique and use that for the basis of each class. And then, in the later modules, add in all the complexity that others would like.

I would love for the core books to be something that you could sit down with a new player and a piece of paper and have a character created in 15-30 minutes and give them at least a basic idea of how to play their character as well. The later editions are so complex unless someone teaches you it's just overwhelming. My last 4th edition character I created was 5 pages long when I printed it out. I was like holy sh*t!

tldr: Keep the core classes short and simple for the most part. Add the complexity in in later modules.
 

WoW is horrible example of homogeneity. Even classes/specs that do the same thing vary dramatically in how they play using vastly different resource systems and having dramatically different utility abilities that can have a significant impact on any given fight. If that were not the case group composition would not have such a dramatic impact on fights.

Some examples
  • Rogues have significant ramp up time and are resource locked. They excel in fights where their allowed a high degree of time on the target and suffer in scenarios where target switching is necessarry. They also have a relatively more methodical play style.
  • Arms Warriors are GCD locked and have negligible ramp up time plus a strong suite of mobility abilities. Target swaps are meaningless to them. To play an Arms Warrior successfully your fingers need to move at a million miles a second.
  • Arcane Mages have a simple rotation based on two abilities - Arcane Blast and Arcane Missiles. Arcane Blast applies a debuff to the mage that increases the damage done by Arcane Blast but also dramatically increases its mana cost. To remove the debuff you use Arcane Missiles which is necessary if you don't want to burn out of mana. This makes Arcane Mages the kings of burst damage. In fights where you need to quick burn adds or have phases with a damage multiplier Arcane Mages are preferred.
  • Shadow Priests have strong damage over time abilities and on the hands of a skilled player excel at fights where you're fighting multiple high health enemies.

I don't play WoW anymore, but it isn't because of class homogeneity. Recycled content gets boring after awhile.

Edit: I think it's strange that homogeneity is only seen as problem in D&D when comparing casters to non-casters.
  • Barbarian - I full attack.
  • Fighter - I full attack
  • Paladin - I full attack
  • Rogue - I 5-foot-step to flank. I full attack with sneak attack.
  • Monk - I flurry of misses (fancy full attack)
  • Wizard - I cast a prepared Vancian spell
  • Cleric - I cast a prepared Vancian spell
  • Druid - I cast a prepared Vancian spell
  • Sorcerer - I cast a spontaneous Vancian spell
  • Bard - I cast a spontaneous Vancian spell
 
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Getting back to DnD in general though, as time progressed, things started getting added to all the classes to make everyone happy. In the end though it's made everyone too similar. It's impossible to make every class perfectly equal without removing what makes them unique. Look at computer games like WoW to see a perfect example of what happens when you try and make everyone happy and everyone perfectly the same power. You end up with everyone with similar abilities and almost no one happy. (please don't take the WoW reference to mean any particular version of DnD is like WoW, I am just using it as an example of what happens when you try and balance everything to perfection). The best games I've played in each class excels in certain areas, and it's up to the DM to make sure each player has thier turn to shine. Traps and Sneaking, talk to the thief, Need to take out the nasty orc chiefton, Fighter Joe please step up, and so on.

I've heard this argument advanced before, both here and on the wizards forums, but I've never seen good evidence for what seems like an argument that assumes its conclusion. There is no inherent reason why balance requires homogeneity and a lot of computer games offer proof of this. The Diablo classes and World of Warcraft classes play completely differently, and yet are much more balanced than pre-4e D&D; the different races of Starcraft play completely differently yet are in nigh-perfect balance.

4e showed that balance was possible within D&D - it used a very blunt force method of doing so, by routing everything through the AEDU system. But that's hardly the only method of balancing classes.
 

Edit: I think it's strange that homogeneity is only seen as problem in D&D when comparing casters to non-casters.
  • Barbarian - I full attack.
  • Fighter - I full attack
  • Paladin - I full attack
  • Rogue - I 5-foot-step to flank. I full attack with sneak attack.
  • Monk - I flurry of misses (fancy full attack)
  • Wizard - I cast a prepared Vancian spell
  • Cleric - I cast a prepared Vancian spell
  • Druid - I cast a prepared Vancian spell
  • Sorcerer - I cast a spontaneous Vancian spell
  • Bard - I cast a spontaneous Vancian spell

That's about as fair as saying...

-Fighter: I use an At-will power
-Paladin: I use an At-will power
-Rogue: I use an At-will power
-Wizard: I use an At-will power
-Ranger: I use an At-will power
-Warlord: I use an At-will power
-Warlock: I use an At-will power
-Cleric: I use an At-will power
-Barbarian: I use an At-will power
-Avenger: I use an At-will power
-Shaman: I use an At-will power
-Druid: I use an At-will power

Though in all honesty I have seen the first round of a 4e fight go like this on more than one occasion... ;)
 


Actually the reason they were "same-y" is because basically everyone has the same abilities with just different names and flavor text. Everyone can heal, everyone can do about the same damage with each attack. Everyone can push their opponent, etc. 4th in an attempt to perfectly balance each class made them all too similar.

Yes of course they are not all identical, but most classes have basically the same abilities with a an emphasis in a certain direction in order to make them at least a little different. I.e. Controller, Leader, etc.

TO ME, 4th removed the cool factor of what made each class unique and homogenized them all into a bland oneness.

Okay, so if we make the 5e Fighter taking inspiration from 4e, but we don't do that with other classes, then we end up with a versatile, capable Fighter who isn't the same as every other class. Sounds like a win-win to me.
 


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