Compound Penalties

[aycarus]

Hey all,

Can anybody think of an instance where a character is penalized a compound amount based on his current level?

One easy example of this is with skill points. If you have an intelligence of 8 at first level, you'll have 4 less skill points than you would normally. At 20th level, you'll have 23 less skill points than you would normally if you keep the same intelligence.

In the case of a strength adjustment of -1, it seems that at least with regard to skill points, the situation is immediately corrected by raising your strength - independent of what level you do this at. If you do the same with intelligence in the former scenario, you don't regain those skill points you've lost.

Are scenarios like this reasonable from a game design perspective?

 

[RSKennan]

I don't know of any other such situations but this is why I disagree with Skip William's ruling that Intelligence increases shouldn't increase skill points retroactively.

Personally, I could easily see gaining new insight into old information with an increase of Int. They say normal intelligence is the ability to see "A" and get to "B" and that genius is the ability to see "A" and jump to "D".

From a purely mechanics-related standpoint, more skill points in line with Int doesn't break a thing IMHO. I really don't understand the rationale behind the ruling. The only possible reason would be to prevent Int from becoming a low-level dump stat, but with the average rolls it you'd rarely end up with less than an Int of 10-11; after all it's good enough for a peasant farmer, shouldn't it be good enough for a peasant hero?

I think it's a bad policy to compound penalties unless you allow them to be bought off.

I'm sorry that that's off topic, but I wanted to say that.

 

[Trainz]

I don't know of any other such situations but this is why I disagree with Skip William's ruling that Intelligence increases shouldn't increase skill points retroactively.

I disagree.

What if, for some reason, your 10th level rogue permanently looses 2 points of intelligence ? Does he remove 13 ranks from his skills ? It doesn't make sense.

If you allow that, then if a PC discovers that he needs 10 ranks in a skill that he never invested in before, he simply asks someone to cast on him a spell that permanently lowers his intelligence by 2 (looses 13 ranks as per example above), and then has a restoration cast on him (regain lost intelligence) and puts his 13 recovered ranks in whatever fashion he now desires.

It's just too weird.

 

[Aesmael]

But if he is being restored to his previous state, should not the new points go first into remembering the knowledge he lost?

If he really needs to rearrange skill points he would be better off finding a psion.

 

[RigaMortus]

Personally, I could easily see gaining new insight into old information with an increase of Int.

And he does... For example. Lets say we have a level 3 character that has an Int 13. Let's assume they maxed out Knowledge (Arcana) +7 (6 ranks, and +1 from intelligence). At level 4 they bump up Intelligence to 14. what happens to Knowledge (Arcana)? It increases to +8 (before buying any new ranks) because they raised Int and got "new insight" (to use your words) in the subject.

Think of it this way. When a skill increases because the contributing attribute's modifier increases, assume it is because of new insight into the subject.

When a skill increases because you bought more ranks, that is experience or research you put into it.

 

[Trainz]

But if he is being restored to his previous state, should not the new points go first into remembering the knowledge he lost?

Possibly, but will you remember exactly (or, more important, will the *DM* remember exactly) where those points were ? What if it takes 6 game session before the restoration is cast ?

You could write down exactly how many ranks each skill lost, but it's a very sloppy way to administer something that doesn't happen often and should be dealt with quickly and efficiently.

If he really needs to rearrange skill points he would be better off finding a psion.

Which we don't use in my campaigns or my DM's campaigns.

 

[Sledge]

What permanent methods are there to lose Int?

 

[Sithobi1]

Hit your head repeatedly against the wall until you fall unconscious. When you wake up, if you have not yet suffered INT loss, do it again.
In a more serious note, there are several spells that cause INT to be lowered permanently, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Feeblemind.

 

[RSKennan]

I disagree.

What if, for some reason, your 10th level rogue permanently looses 2 points of intelligence ? Does he remove 13 ranks from his skills ? It doesn't make sense.

Why not? It would represent the instance of someone having a serious accident and having to relearn their abilities.

If you allow that, then if a PC discovers that he needs 10 ranks in a skill that he never invested in before, he simply asks someone to cast on him a spell that permanently lowers his intelligence by 2 (looses 13 ranks as per example above), and then has a restoration cast on him (regain lost intelligence) and puts his 13 recovered ranks in whatever fashion he now desires.

It's just too weird.

It's weird all right, and I'd rule that upon an ability loss you'd have to keep track of old ranks, since it's pretty much a given in a moderate magic setting that the PC would seek restoration. Restoration in particular would do just that- restore. I might allow a different spending of points if the character levelled between his loss and regaining his Int. If you didn't want to do the bookkeeping you could just let it slide, but require training to learn skills not on the character sheet. This could mimic an accountant taking brain damage and becoming an artist. It happens in the real world.

It seems like the paperwork's the main issue, and I don't think that's a good reason to create a special case that runs against the grain of a game system. All my opinion, of course.

 

[RSKennan]

And he does... For example. Lets say we have a level 3 character that has an Int 13. Let's assume they maxed out Knowledge (Arcana) +7 (6 ranks, and +1 from intelligence). At level 4 they bump up Intelligence to 14. what happens to Knowledge (Arcana)? It increases to +8 (before buying any new ranks) because they raised Int and got "new insight" (to use your words) in the subject.

Think of it this way. When a skill increases because the contributing attribute's modifier increases, assume it is because of new insight into the subject.

When a skill increases because you bought more ranks, that is experience or research you put into it.

Doesn't work for me. It doesn't seem big enough.

I'd say the ability increase represented different things depending on the relevant stat. It sort of works for Int skills, but not for say, Str skills. It might sort of work for Dex- if you see Dex as mastery over your body's movement. Still, it doesn't really satisfy me. +1 or so to a skill isn't the same as (+1 X class multiplier) per level- just like a +3 hp toughness feat has limited value at high levels.


I'm (usually) a GM too; I'm not someone looking to munch out my character.