Computers beat up my role player

[Doug McCrae]

Further to the issue of freedom, we have to consider mods. These are huge in Morrowind, and I think NWN as well. They are developed for free by third parties and can be downloaded by anyone. These mods allow a user to change his interface, alter graphics, add geography, play lots of new scenarios and even change the rules of the game. Surely this is almost exactly the same as the ability of players in a human rpg to alter the rules?

The ones for MMORPGs don't allow you to change as much, just your control systems and the information the player receives. The limiting factor here is that there are many players, not just one, so you can't mess with the game as much. It's interesting that with crpgs, just as with human rpgs, the presence of more players becomes a major limiting factor on freedom.

In addition to mods, non-mmo crpgs will invariably allow the user to alter the settings, and tweak gameplay, such as by changing the difficulty level. Can you imagine, as a player, trying to change the difficulty level in a human rpg? Say you think an encounter is too hard for the party. Such players are slaughtered on this message board for 'whining' and having a 'sense of entitlement'.

 

[Ourph]

How is making particular conscious decisions on limitations you'll implement any different than making a conscious choice to accept the limitations of a particular computer program?

Because those conscious decisions on limitations do not have to be made prior to your purchase of the game in the store and can be changed at any time after purchasing the game in the store without further input from the game designer. With a CRPG those decisions are all made before the product hits the shelf and are all irreversible barring modification of the game by the original designer (via a patch or whatever).

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Because those conscious decisions on limitations do not have to be made prior to your purchase of the game in the store and can be changed at any time after purchasing the game in the store without further input from the game designer. With a CRPG those decisions are all made before the product hits the shelf and are all irreversible barring modification of the game by the original designer (via a patch or whatever).

Or barring a mod made by the player or somebody else that modifies the behaviour of an NPC in a preferred way. Am bringing that up because I experienced it with Ultima 5 Lazarus, a perfect remake of Ultima 5 with the Dungeon Siege engine. It is made as a mod (a 600 MB mod) for Dungeon Siege, and you can get "mods for the mod" that modify everything, from camera angles to weapon effects to NPC behaviour. It's free since the creators are not allowed to make any money from the mod, and it has provided me with roughly 100 hours of roleplaying fun.

 

[Rothe]

I'd say it's a matter of degree, the worst pen-and-paper RPGs I've been in have been more limiting than many CRPGs I've played. CRPGs are really just like railroad campaigns with limited tracks and a myopic rules as written, by the book, "if the book doesn't explicitly say fighters can climb, they can't" DM. The difference with CRPGs is that you don't get the asnine DM aspect and you often get at least 2 or more railroad tracks to follow instead of one.
The best CRPGs I've played make you forget that your choices and environment interaction options are limited. They get you to buy into what you can do and put it into use in ingenious ways, mostly tactical combat ways, but still hack-n-slash is a time honored RPG play mode. And the very best CRPG may not have all my roleplaying options in mind but certainly sophisticated enough conversation trees to make it fun and give some choice, better than some human DMs.

 

[Hussar]

I thought I posted this, but, I must have been sleeping.

Dork Tower has the best answer to this EVAR.

http://archive.gamespy.com/comics/dorktower/archive.asp?nextform=viewcomic&id=1246

 

[I'm A Banana]

Generally speaking, RPGs in the video game world are usually marked by the ability to level up. This is one reason Ninja Gaiden isn't one. While in Ninja Gaiden you gain new abilities and there is a story, there are no "levels" to gain. The same is true of God of War which isn't considered an RPG because, while your equipment and spells level, the character doesn't. This is why Oblivion is an RPG instead of a FPS. This doesn't always apply, but its a good guideline to follow.

And it's interesting to note that even those are considered to be blurring the line because of the ability to advance your character. Even Metroid, with various power-ups that allow you to explore new areas, is sometimes said to have "RPG elements" (though more commonly they are called "adventure games").

BINGO! YOU'VE GOT IT! That's the gateway that creates an actual role-playing game. In a role-playing game, the RAW are just tools and guidelines for arbitrating player activity; the game master, a live human being, is required to be there interacting with the other players. No set of rules or video game engine can capture the infinite variety of actions, situations, circumstances, and so on that human imagination and social interaction can create.

A CRPG's team of creators takes on that role in determining how the game reacts to the actions of the players. And plenty of video games encompass whatever actions the players really *want* to do with less strictures than some Pen and Paper games.

Or would you really call a campaign where, say, gnomes weren't allowed as a player race, at all encompassing any sort of infinite variety?

A CRPG is limited by it's programming. A TRPG is limited by it's DM.

They are different, but not to such a degree that it matters enough to call one "TRUE" and the other "FALSE" unless you want to be unnecessarily pedantic and elitist about it.

 

[DungeonMaester]

Lets see if a cprg fits the name sake of a rpg.

Is a Crpg a Game in which you Play a Role ?

Check, Check and check.

We have a winner.

 

[Raven Crowking]

If the inability to advance your character makes something not a role-playing game, then the original Traveller wasn't an RPG....something I would dispute.

Is a Crpg a Game in which you Play a Role ?

No.

A CRPG is a Game in which you discover what role the programmer(s) have designed, and then follow that design. You play a simulation of a role.

RC

 

[RFisher]

You can do that in Fable.

I find a c. 1996 Fable and a c. 2004 Fable. (Which don't seem to be related.) Do I assume correctly that you are referencing the latter?

Generally speaking, RPGs in the video game world are usually marked by the ability to level up.

Interesting. By that definition there are TRPGs that wouldn't count. Indeed, some of the most interesting one to me these days are those in which the rewards are other than increases to character stats.

Mostly what I don't understand is why you want to use a definition that is different than the generally accepted definition. How many people have to use a term differently than its initial creation before the word's definition changes? How long? That's why it seems a bit elitist, not because you're excluding computer games, but because people at large consider computer games to fall into the roleplaying game category.

Prescriptivism may indeed be a form of elitism, but it is far from new in the world of definitions. (^_^) Yet, I am unsure that the "generally accepted" definition is what you think it is.

I am wondering if the OED has anything on this. (Not because I feel it is an absolute authority on such issues. As I said, I'm much more interested in the differences between the games than in the differences in definitions. Simply because every discussion of definitions makes me wonder what the OED says.)

I'm not experienced with wargames, but I assume the main point is not to control a character or characters, but to play through a single scenario. Note that above I did say that if you start calling your character "Bob" you're now playing a roleplaying game.

For me, the key can be traced back (if what I've read can be believed) to Free Kriegspiel. A wargame in which the umpire was given free reign to decide the outcome of the actions of the players rather than having to consult a complex system of rules.

This inspired a game called Strategos.

This inspired Dave Wesely to create his Braunstein games.

This inspired Dave Arneson to create his Blackmoor campaign and his notebook.

This inspired Gary Gygax to create his Greyhawk campaign and Dungeons & Dragons.

This inspried (directly or indirectly) nigh every game that has been called an RPG, whether we agree that all of them are "true RPGs" or not.

(Although that lineage certainly leaves out some important influences, but it's the lineage that--for me--is key.)

And--truth be told--I think someone like Law Shick--who actually investigated the history of the hobby--would be a better authority to provide a definition--if you're looking for an authority--than Gygax. No disrepect for Gary intended.

And let us also keep in mind that Gary--as came out in his Q&A thread not so long ago--neither coined "role-playing game" nor knows who did. Not that I think that invalidates anyone's choice to back his definition--just that I need to nitpick. (^_^)

Would you or would you not say that there are more people who play video games than play tabletop roleplaying games?

Immaterial to the discussion of definition. Just because someone plays video games doesn't mean that they agree that CRPGs are "true RPGs".

EDIT: That's what separates "Cops and Robbers" or "Cowboys and Indians" from being roleplaying games after all.

Those are RPGs. At least according to Rob Kuntz.

I tend to think a rule to resolve disputes is necessary, but it can be as simple as "the GM makes the final decision" or "anyone at the table can veto anything" or "don't contradict what someone else has already said".

(Hmm. Would I consider improvisational theatre a "true RPG"?)

In fact, that pretty much sums up what my working definition of "RPG" has been recently: Let's pretend with a rule to resolve disputes.

Though Kuntz will cite "GM rulings" by impartial adults from when he played "Cops & Robbers" as a kid.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Is a Crpg a Game in which you Play a Role ?

No.

Yes!

Interesting. By that definition there are TRPGs that wouldn't count. Indeed, some of the most interesting one to me these days are those in which the rewards are other than increases to character stats.

Yep. Back in the day there were people who defined RPGs also by their turn based combat. It was used to help distinguish The Legend of Zelda from an RPG. That's quite outdated by now, however.

Prescriptivism may indeed be a form of elitism, but it is far from new in the world of definitions. (^_^) Yet, I am unsure that the "generally accepted" definition is what you think it is.

I've never heard anyone argue in gaming circles that Final Fantasy is not an RPG. Everyone I have ever talked about Final Fantasy with considers it an RPG. If you go into a Gamestop (or other local gaming store) and ask to see some Roleplaying Games, everyone will know what you're talking about, will not correct you, and you'll often find someone who you can discuss the latest RPG with.

This will be repeated just about anywhere: a college campus, an arcade, a con, a message board, whatever. Go to ENWorld's own Software section and ask about the latest RPGs in video games. I bet you nobody will tell you a CRPG isn't really an RPG. If you're talking with someone about video games and say "RPG" they will not look at you in confusion. They know exactly what you're talking about. Then call Zelda, God of War, or Assassin's Creed an RPG, and you'll have someone correct you. So, yes, it is ubiquitous.