Computers beat up my role player

[WayneLigon]

I think more of it along these lines: If people started referring to all fruit as "apples" for whatever reason, how long until calling an orange an apple would be permissable?

I've never heard anyone argue in gaming circles that Final Fantasy is not an RPG. Everyone I have ever talked about Final Fantasy with considers it an RPG. If you go into a Gamestop (or other local gaming store) and ask to see some Roleplaying Games, everyone will know what you're talking about, will not correct you, and you'll often find someone who you can discuss the latest RPG with.

Grass and tomatoes are both 'plants' just like CRPGS and RPGs are 'Games' or 'Entertainments'.

Tomatoes are a fruit, by nature of it's structure. But they are not sweet like most fruits, and are not made into pies or desserts. Every grocery store I know groups the tomatoes in the produce section with the vegetables. There is even a popular vegetable juice drink that is mostly made from tomatoes. I would be willing to bet that if you asked any ten people in the US to name five vegetables, tomato would be one.

Most people consider tomatoes to be vegetables and treat their actual classification as a fruit as an interesting bit of trivia.

This still does not prevent them from being dead wrong.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yes!

Must....keep....Internet.....from.....imploding........

 

[DungeonMaester]

If the inability to advance your character makes something not a role-playing game, then the original Traveller wasn't an RPG....something I would dispute.



No.

A CRPG is a Game in which you discover what role the programmer(s) have designed, and then follow that design. You play a simulation of a role.

RC

The added words does not change the fact that it is a game you play a role in.
Its like saying four quarters may make a dollar but they are not made from paper like a dollar is.

---Rusty

 

[Gimby]

Or to put it another way, does playing a conventional tabletop game with pre-generated characters prevent it from being a roleplaying game?

 

[Raven Crowking]

The added words does not change the fact that it is a game you play a role in.
Its like saying four quarters may make a dollar but they are not made from paper like a dollar is.

---Rusty

Madden Football is a game in which you play football. It is useless to say that you are not playing actual football. The added words does not change the fact that it is a game you play football in. It's like saying a Monopoly dollar is not a dollar because it is only worth a dollar in Monopoly.

Or to put it another way, does playing a conventional tabletop game with pre-generated characters prevent you from making any reasonable choice within the context of that game? Or are you only allowed to make the choices that were predetermines "possibles" long before you even started?

 

[DungeonMaester]

Madden Football is a game in which you play football. It is useless to say that you are not playing actual football. The added words does not change the fact that it is a game you play football in. It's like saying a Monopoly dollar is not a dollar because it is only worth a dollar in Monopoly.

Or to put it another way, does playing a conventional tabletop game with pre-generated characters prevent you from making any reasonable choice within the context of that game? Or are you only allowed to make the choices that were predetermines "possibles" long before you even started?

This logic doesn't work because you care comparing apples and oranges, and i'll tell you why.

You are right on about madden football vrs real football, but that example does not work for rpg vrs crpgs becase they are both games in which you are playing a role in. They both start off giving the players fictous character in a fictous world to play in, so unlike real vrs madden football, they are the same thing, only done in a differnt format. It is like asying Improve is true comedy becyase they made up jokes, and stand up is only a comdey sim because their lines have all ready been written.

---Rusty

 

[Raven Crowking]

This logic doesn't work because you are comparing apples and apples, and I'll tell you why.

You are wrong about Madden football vs real football, becase they are both games in which you are playing football. Therefore, Madden football = playing football. And Monopoly money = real money. Simply because Monopoly money is only useful in Monopoly doesn't mean that it isn't being used to buy things. The limitations on the form have nothing to do with its meaning.

 

[Gimby]

Or to put it another way, does playing a conventional tabletop game with pre-generated characters prevent you from making any reasonable choice within the context of that game? Or are you only allowed to make the choices that were predetermines "possibles" long before you even started?

If you are playing with a particularly restrictive/rail-roady/pixelbitching DM (yes, I'm aware thats a computer game term, but it does describe the actions of some DMs well) where there is only one answer to a problem or you are forced to follow a particular story, are you not roleplaying?

It may not be the *best* RPG, but it is still *an* RPG. There are some CRPGs where you have a meaningful effect on the world (clear the Naskel mines in BG1 and they stay cleared). There are others where your character can develop in a number of different directions (Nameless one from PS:T being the prime example). While your options are limited and the outcomes pre-determined this is not really any different from a rail-roaded pre-bought module (Dragonlance, anyone?). While sandbox play might be the ideal way to play it does not mean that anything less than full freedom means that you are not playing an RPG.

Exersicing your freedom to try anything in a tabletop game can also be distruptive - if you decide that your character wishes to spend all his days fishing then you can expect most DMs to tell you to roll a new character or attempt to get your character involved in whatever they have planned. If you wish to spend all your days fishing on WoW then you are quite welcome to do so. All formats have a certain number of limitations.

As to the playing of American football or John Madden - In one case you are playing football, the other you are simulating it. Playing a tabletop RPG is (typically) simulating adventuring - a CRPG is not simulating playing an RPG, it is *also* simulating adventuring (unless you are playing something self-referential or The Sims). A more suitable analogy would be:

Football=Adventuring
Subbuteo=TTRPG
Fifa 200X=CRPG

While clearly CRPGs limit your freedom to act outside a number of limited options, a good CRPG will endeavour to present you with a large number of options - giving at least the illusion of freedom. Which is sometimes all you get in tabletop games. In return for that, you can play without needing to gather a large group of people, get the mechanics handled automatically and (often) an excellent story. It is a trade-off. To claim that you *cannot* roleplay in a CRPG is I believe a gross simplification.

 

[Asmo]

Poll-time,anyone?

Asmo

 

[Raven Crowking]

To claim that you *cannot* roleplay in a CRPG is I believe a gross simplification.

Likewise Monopoly. Especially those variants like Star Wars Monopoly. I enjoy putting on a "Darth Vader breathing noise" when I land on Endor.

Just because your options are limited, doesn't make Monopoly not a role-playing game.