CONAN Is Finally Here!

After appearing three years running in the 10 Most Anticipated RPGs of the Year list, it seems that Conan's streak has come to and end - because Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of has been released! You can get it right now from Modiphius' web store, and will be able to get it elsewhere from tomorrow. PDF only, for the moment. You can also grab a book of six adventures, Jewelled Thrones of the Earth. Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed of is based on Modiphius' own 2d20 system (which also powers their upcoming Star Trek Adventures game). The book is now available for review in the reviews area.

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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

CapnZapp

Legend
He was asked to by others (including the board's admin) to explain why; he then didn't explain, instead simply restating his (to me illogical based upon the evidence he's given) hate...
Sorry there is no such thing as "illogical" taste preferences.

Let's just accept that Moephius inclusion of meta mechanics is (somewhat?) controversial, that the labelling of meta mechanics as controversial is (apparently) itself controversial ;) and move on.

(This thread was supposed to be a "plus" thread about the awesomesauce that is Conan, remember :) )
 

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Igwilly

First Post
I'm quite on the fence regarding meta-game mechanics. Some I like, others I hate.
For example, I'm ok with 13th Age's meta-game mechanics, but I hated D&D 5e's inspiration mechanic. I don't quite know why.

With that said, is the game good? Does the game simulates the old Sword & Sorcery genre? Because my D&D games end up way much different from that.
Perhaps this is a game I would buy. But the price...
I do not buy games to see musculous men scantly-clad in hide, but I could ignore that if the game is good ^^
 

Just a heads up, because someone asked: Modiphius are still selling pledges on their webstore - specifically the PRint and PDF master bundle that gives you the core book and the PDFs of all the other books.

Okay statement made please carry on talking about funky meta mechanics.
 

slygeek

Villager
I think most you (even the ones defending 2d20's "Meta-Game" mechanics) are missing the point behind those mechanics.

I think over the years, especially recently from D&D play-test surverys, is that Story-telling and Roleplaying are at heart of an RPG.

Some aspects of the "Meta-Game" mechanics of the 2d20 system are aimed specifically at enhancing Story-telling. Such as troop reinforcements and environmental effects.

For Mutant Chronicles (the original 2d20 system game) the mechanic is called Dark Symmetry. And frankly the game just wouldn't function well without it, because the Dark Symmetry is so interwoven into the Setting. If fact the characters are supposed to understand the presence of Dark Symmetry almost as something tangible. Its necessary to feel that impending doom always pervading among them.

In Conan, they just re-worded it to "Doom".

Where I believe Modiphius went wrong is they should have re-hired Jay Little, gone back to the drawing books and the designed a system from the ground up aimed specifically at Sword & Sorcery. So their "meta-game" mechanic should of been aimed at making Combat more visceral, brutal and cinematic. I think that would of had a better effect. Because when reading Conan, I don't get this pervading doom feeling on the horizon, but I do get the sense of brutality, a gritty dangerous feeling that you are on your own and nobody is going to save you.

You can't compare the "meta-game" mecahnics of Jay Little's 2d20 system to Savage Worlds, d20 Modern Action Points or anything. Because the meta-game mechanics in this case are specifically aimed at Story-telling. And that is a powerful tool for an RPG, because as state at the beginning, the heart of RPGs is Story-telling.

I understand that a "meta-game" mechanic that only adds a mathematical / gaming aspect to an RPG may be controversial. But Doom / Dark Symmetry is just so far from that camp that they can't be considered even in the group.

Take the Star Wars be FFG (also designed by Jay Little), the Destiny "meta-game" mechanic is specifically designed at replicating the FORCE. And the characters know and understand the Force as something very real in the universe. Add Triumph and Despair (also meta-game mechanics) to the mix and you get incredible Story-telling effects that oh-so much screams the feeling of Star Wars.

My point is.

Several modern games understand that hey, were playing a Roleplaying game where the focus is Story-telling. Why not include rules that ENHANCE and ENCOURAGE the Story-telling?

This is why I think games like *cough* D&D *cough* are in fact dinosaurs. Because they make no such attempt. In fact, all the mechanics are only aimed at combat and skill resolution.

2d20 is miles ahead. Its controversial, because its ahead of its time.

I'm telling you, RPGs that actually push Roleplayng and Story-telling in its mechanics are the future. Because in the end, they simply result in a better more engaging roleplaying/story telling experience which we agree is at the heart of Roleplaying.

Cudos to 2d20 and Jay Little's genius and for Modiphius to take a leap in this direction.
 

slygeek

Villager
Call it "pipi Caca" or "dodo poo doo" mechanic. If the mechanic enhances the story-telling or roleplaying experience or the enjoy-ability of the game as whole. How can you even begin to call it a "bad mechanic" ?

I think the problem is that some of us are categorizing "Doom" in this "Meta-Game" group, and thus giving it a bad undeserving name.

Calculating monster his points to see how much hit points the next monster will have, that is meta-gaming. Have 'powers' (ei 4th edition) that push monsters back and forth on a battle-grid , that is meta-gaming. And these are bad things imo, because they disconnect you from the roleplaying/storytelling and put the G in RPG at the forefront.

Mechanics that enhance story-telling, that is not bad, its innovative. Its trying something different to get a better experience. Doom may not have been the best choice but at least it has positive effects in the right direction.
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
I think most you (even the ones defending 2d20's "Meta-Game" mechanics) are missing the point behind those mechanics.

I think over the years, especially recently from D&D play-test surverys, is that Story-telling and Roleplaying are at heart of an RPG.

Some aspects of the "Meta-Game" mechanics of the 2d20 system are aimed specifically at enhancing Story-telling. Such as troop reinforcements and environmental effects.

For Mutant Chronicles (the original 2d20 system game) the mechanic is called Dark Symmetry. And frankly the game just wouldn't function well without it, because the Dark Symmetry is so interwoven into the Setting. If fact the characters are supposed to understand the presence of Dark Symmetry almost as something tangible. Its necessary to feel that impending doom always pervading among them.

In Conan, they just re-worded it to "Doom".

Where I believe Modiphius went wrong is they should have re-hired Jay Little, gone back to the drawing books and the designed a system from the ground up aimed specifically at Sword & Sorcery.

EXACTLY!

THIS MAN HAS IT.

ABSOLUTELY.

I AGREE 11,000% (with the above).



And, I've said as much before on other threads. The 2d20 Mechanic is fine for the game it was designed, Mutant Chronicles. But, there is nothing like "Dark Symmetry" in the Hyborian Age. The mechanic no longer makes sense in within the game's universe. There is no Ying and Yang, Karma, balance of Good and Evil or Law and Chaos present in the Conan stories.

The DOOM mechanic doesn't make sense. The notion of a character gaining a bonus now but at the price of the rest of the group being penalized later is not a concept that defines Conan's world (or is present in any Howard Conan story).

The Modiphius guys shoehorned a game mechanic that was specifically created for a very different game universe into Conan's world, and it doesn't make sense.








I find it extremely...what's the word...ironic? That a game created by Conan scholars and Howard purists would use a game system that is such a bad fit with the Hyborian Age.

I suspect that the writers and designers had no choice in the game mechanic other than to mold 2d20 to their needs. My guess is that Modiphius said, "You've got to use some version of the 2d20 system because that's what we've decided is going to be our house system." And, that was that.

I also suspect that we'd have A TON of people raving about the new Conan rpg had they created or gone with a more traditional system that actually made sense within the universe of the Hyborian Age.
 
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Water Bob

Adventurer
2d20 is miles ahead. Its controversial, because its ahead of its time.

But, this part of what Sly said, I don't agree.

All the story element is in the game is a dicing trigger. When the trigger happens, it's the green light to implement an effect.

This has been a part of roleplaying for a long, long time.

EGG talks about a DM interpreting dice rolls and describing effects in the AD&D DM's Guide of 40 years ago.

Lots of games have mechanics where "when this is rolled" (trigger), "then this happens" (effect).

With 2d20, the triigger is momentum and high success. "Hey, look what I rolled!" That's the trigger. It's the signal that you get to make up something different or extra about what your character is doing. What you make up is the effect.

That's no different than rolling a Critical Hit in 3E D&D (trigger) that causes extra damage (effect).

It's no different than several mechanics in the Mongoose Conan game, like an attacker rolling exactly the number of his foe's AC (trigger), as this indicates that the two have locked blades. The attacker is given a free sunder attempt on his foe's weapon, and if the weapon resists, the two are locked in a test of STR, pushing and pulling their swords against each other (effect).

There's nothing innovative about it. This design as been around a long time.

The only thing that I can think of that is maybe a little bit different is that the effect is not combat or skill oriented all the time. Story results are encouraged.





From my point of view, the Mechanic is not liberating at all. Rather, it's a straightjacket. It's more restrictive than, say, a standard D&D game (thinking of 3E, since that's what I play).

1. It trains the players to be creative only when the dice trigger it.

2. It can be seen as limiting the GM's control on the game--especially if the GM has to wait for the players to generate DOOM points before he can implement certain parts of his story.

3. In D&D, it is sometimes fun to go into a town and roleplay with the local merchant for supplies. Then, at other times, the ebb and flow of the game, as measured by the DM, dictates that dragging out yet another miscellaneous roleplay with a merchant would bore the players and slow the pace of the game, making it less interesting for the players. Dice have no way of measuring whether its time to have a cool story element or just dice-n-go. I've seen 2d20 GMs report how the dice indicate a big success but everyone at the table is fresh out of ideas but feel pressured by the dice to "come up with something". I've also heard about the same effect (the same story element) being used, over and over, when triggered by the 2d20 dice. The point is: Sometimes, in an rpg, you just want to dice it and keep on moving, and the 2d20 mechanics are not always in on that game plan.
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
CONSTRUCTIVE THOUGHT ON 2D20....DOOM POINTS...AND BOON POINTS

I've often thought about how to "fix" the meta-game aspect of the 2d20 system, as far as the Conan rpg is concerned. It's a hard nut to crack because the 2d20 is designed around that give-n-take relationship, where players build DOOM, and the GM uses DOOM to enhance obstacles down the road.

Here's a thought that I have. Let me put it out on the porch and see if the Cat will lick it up.

In other words, let's discuss, if you are so inclined.





What if DOOM was limited to an adventure? Remove the part where players generate DOOM. A GM is given a number of DOOM points to spend for the entire adventure, and that's it.

First off, players wouldn't know the number of DOOM the GM has. They can't see it or count it as they can in standard 2d20, and that would remove that meta-game aspect.

An adventure's difficulty could be measured by how many DOOM points the GM has to use in that game. It would be like a level 1-3 dugneon versus a level 4-6 dungeon. The GM has X number of DOOM he can use for this adventure. If he wants to make the adventure harder because there are five PC going through the adventure rather than the four the scenario was designed for, then the GM can add Y number of DOOM points to his total for the adventure, to make the adventure harder.

Something like that would pretty much remove the Meta-Game aspect from the game. DOOM points become the level of difficulty.






BOON Points.

As for players, they would need a new pool. Where in standard 2d20 they buy extra dice and such by paying the GM DOOM. Here, we would slightly change that so that players take from a limited pool--again this considered part of the difficulty.

The difficulty of an adventure would be measured by how many DOOM points the GM gets to use, and how man (I'll call them) BOON points, the players get to use.

Should the player know how many points the players get in the BOON pool? I don't know. We should discuss this. They will know when they've used all of them, of course. Maybe we leave it up to the GM to decide whether he lets the players know how many points are in the BOON pool.

Once all the BOON points are gone, then the player can no longer "buy" extra dice for tasks.





What do you guys think about this?

I'm thinking that, if this works, I might actually buy the game, as it will remove the problems I have with the game.

A big question will be working out how many BOON points and DOOM points players and GMs need, on average, to complete adventures.

Thoughts?
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
It's meta-game aspect.

Player Fred can generate a lot of DOOM at Monday night's game when he decides to charge a group of bad guys single handed.

The GM scoops up all these DOOM points and keeps them.

Three game sessions later, a different player, George, has his thief try to sneak into the enemy compound. And, this is where the GM decides to use all of his DOOM points...

I really don't think you have played the game considering the details of the post, and further, you've made the naysayers central assumption that the GM is the kind of person who plays against the players, and isn't interested in making the game fun, but a contest for dominance.

The rules talk about the uses of Doom... and as in ALL rpg's, behind a GM screen, any GM can be a dick - no-one sees their rolls.

In a game where the GM is running the game for the enjoyment of their players, Doom is an entirely decent mechanic. You may not like metagame mechanics, but that is not what you are criticising - you are conflating BAD GM'ing with a mechanic that you are claiming is somehow 'responsible' for that happening.

Bad GM'ing is facilitated by any rules system, and good GM'ing will use any set of rules and still produce a good game.

It is not fair to blame one for the other.
 

BOON Points.

Just to jump in here: I like what you're saying, but I really do not think the game needs MORE tokens.

You already have Fortune, Momentum, and Doom. Adding more things to keep track of will just make everything feel worse.

Instead, you really are better off going for the whole 'Remove doom' from your game completely if you don't like it. Will it make other talents obsolete? Yes, but:
1 - Those talents are few and far between
2 - the major use would be the generating of doom to block or dodge attacks, but you could have a MUCH gritter game by making the defender give the opponent momentum in order to dodge.
3 - when you would do something with doom, you could replace it with Momentum or Fortune.

I still do not mind the doom mechanic NEARLY AS MUCH AS EVERYONE, nor do I fantatically believe it is the new state of gaming.

I just think it's cool, its unique enough, and I honestly have no problem with it (this is my disclaimer that I don't hate it, and I also would gladly take a look at options if someone came up with a better/worse way of using it.)

Once again, just my two cents. I would like to however get past our constant Doom levels and speak about the combat system itself. Anyone played through it properly yet?
 
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Caliburn101

Explorer
I think most you (even the ones defending 2d20's "Meta-Game" mechanics) are missing the point behind those mechanics.

I think over the years, especially recently from D&D play-test surverys, is that Story-telling and Roleplaying are at heart of an RPG.

Some aspects of the "Meta-Game" mechanics of the 2d20 system are aimed specifically at enhancing Story-telling. Such as troop reinforcements and environmental effects.

For Mutant Chronicles (the original 2d20 system game) the mechanic is called Dark Symmetry. And frankly the game just wouldn't function well without it, because the Dark Symmetry is so interwoven into the Setting. If fact the characters are supposed to understand the presence of Dark Symmetry almost as something tangible. Its necessary to feel that impending doom always pervading among them.

In Conan, they just re-worded it to "Doom".

Where I believe Modiphius went wrong is they should have re-hired Jay Little, gone back to the drawing books and the designed a system from the ground up aimed specifically at Sword & Sorcery. So their "meta-game" mechanic should of been aimed at making Combat more visceral, brutal and cinematic. I think that would of had a better effect. Because when reading Conan, I don't get this pervading doom feeling on the horizon, but I do get the sense of brutality, a gritty dangerous feeling that you are on your own and nobody is going to save you.

Impending doom and the ultimate pointlessness of the effort to carve out civilisation from barbarism, honour from savagery and compassion from a pitiless cosmos are at the very heart of Conan - the Conan set in the middle of the Cthulhu Mythos, the one where the most awful sorceries and inhuman monstrosities exist alongside human decadence, pettiness and cruelty.

I think you may have missed that...

The reason you may not see it in the Conan stories is that Conan is such an exception to the rule. Perhaps you need to pay more attention to the rest of the characters - how quickly they die, get corrupted, betray, even when they were decent to some extent at the start. Those that don't fall get killed, frequently - just look at the sailors who save Conan only to die under Belit's crew's blades, leaving only Conan standing. Look at how many times Conan is helpless, only to call upon amazing inner resources to turn the tables on long odds, and how many times even when that isn't enough, fate intervenes and he is saved by circumstances or third parties.

These things in juxtaposition are actually surprisingly well served by the Doom and Fortune mechanics - and saying that Doom points doesn't facilitate visceral combat is the exact opposite of the experience me and my players have every week when I run it - so I can only conclude you haven't run it or played in it.

It is however true that reading it without playing it concerned me in a similar vein to you, and only playing demonstrated to me that I had been worried about nothing.

I don't like FATE because of it's metagamey feel, and I don't like the idea of such mechanics in general, but I like Conan and it's mechanics.

They are not mechanics that are easy to make accurate presumptions about - they need to be run with before forming an opinion. In a way that is sad, because too many will not try it because of this presumption.

That said - I don't think it will work for the upbeat cosmos of Star Trek - it is key to a 'doomed' and dark gameworld, not an episodic science fiction morality play in the style of Star Trek (which I love btw...).

So please understand, I get your point - I just think you've made it with entirely the wrong 2d20 genre.
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
Just to jump in here: I like what you're saying, but I really do not think the game needs MORE tokens.

Good point. I don't like all those tokens, either.

I'm operating under the assumption that DOOM points are integral to the game. From what I've seen, they are. PCs can't find success at any of the harder tasks except by getting exceptionally lucky on the dice without purchasing extra dice. And, a lot of things are triggered by DOOM for the GM.

I'd like to throw out DOOM all together, but from my POV, it seems that the core of the 2d20 system is the give-n-take between players and GM with the DOOM pool.

If we remove the DOOM pool all together, then how does a player get extra dice for his character? How does a GM buff up an NPC or activate extra guards?
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
CONSTRUCTIVE THOUGHT ON 2D20....DOOM POINTS...AND BOON POINTS

I've often thought about how to "fix" the meta-game aspect of the 2d20 system, as far as the Conan rpg is concerned. It's a hard nut to crack because the 2d20 is designed around that give-n-take relationship, where players build DOOM, and the GM uses DOOM to enhance obstacles down the road.

Here's a thought that I have. Let me put it out on the porch and see if the Cat will lick it up.

In other words, let's discuss, if you are so inclined.





What if DOOM was limited to an adventure? Remove the part where players generate DOOM. A GM is given a number of DOOM points to spend for the entire adventure, and that's it.

First off, players wouldn't know the number of DOOM the GM has. They can't see it or count it as they can in standard 2d20, and that would remove that meta-game aspect.

An adventure's difficulty could be measured by how many DOOM points the GM has to use in that game. It would be like a level 1-3 dugneon versus a level 4-6 dungeon. The GM has X number of DOOM he can use for this adventure. If he wants to make the adventure harder because there are five PC going through the adventure rather than the four the scenario was designed for, then the GM can add Y number of DOOM points to his total for the adventure, to make the adventure harder.

Something like that would pretty much remove the Meta-Game aspect from the game. DOOM points become the level of difficulty.






BOON Points.

As for players, they would need a new pool. Where in standard 2d20 they buy extra dice and such by paying the GM DOOM. Here, we would slightly change that so that players take from a limited pool--again this considered part of the difficulty.

The difficulty of an adventure would be measured by how many DOOM points the GM gets to use, and how man (I'll call them) BOON points, the players get to use.

Should the player know how many points the players get in the BOON pool? I don't know. We should discuss this. They will know when they've used all of them, of course. Maybe we leave it up to the GM to decide whether he lets the players know how many points are in the BOON pool.

Once all the BOON points are gone, then the player can no longer "buy" extra dice for tasks.





What do you guys think about this?

I'm thinking that, if this works, I might actually buy the game, as it will remove the problems I have with the game.

A big question will be working out how many BOON points and DOOM points players and GMs need, on average, to complete adventures.

Thoughts?

I can see that in some of your assumptions (that Doom doesn't already increase with numbers of players as it actually does...) and the interplay of Boon and Doom you suggest as a fix, that you have not played the game.

You haven't bought it even... have you at least read the free starter rules?

Perhaps be more scientific about it if you are suggesting another system would be better?

You have a theory that it is a bad mechanic from I presume third party discussion.

Play the game for long enough to really try out the Doom mechanic. If you think the mechanic still needs fixing after that, then fair enough, but some of your suggestions make it entirely clear you haven't played yet, and that's like someone attacking another persons theory without having tested it's validity first.
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
Good point. I don't like all those tokens, either.

I'm operating under the assumption that DOOM points are integral to the game. From what I've seen, they are. PCs can't find success at any of the harder tasks except by getting exceptionally lucky on the dice without purchasing extra dice. And, a lot of things are triggered by DOOM for the GM.

I'd like to throw out DOOM all together, but from my POV, it seems that the core of the 2d20 system is the give-n-take between players and GM with the DOOM pool.

If we remove the DOOM pool all together, then how does a player get extra dice for his character? How does a GM buff up an NPC or activate extra guards?

You are indeed operating under assumption as you so clearly state... and to go from there to a 'fix' is entirely illogical - like assuming that your won't like chocolate cake because someone else doesn't and before you have ever eaten chocolate, suggesting that it instead taste like coffee, which you have only heard good things about and once again not tried yourself...

This thread started as a 'glad tiding' thing and rapidly descended into largely unfounded and untested criticism - some valid on the general issues some have with metagame mechanics in general, but much more that is misleading insofar as it is specific to the Doom mechanic without any attempt to try the mechanic out before assuming 'it's a problem', deconstructing it from a read-through or even complete assumption, and suggesting something touted as being better.

Amazing really...
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
I can see that in some of your assumptions (that Doom doesn't already increase with numbers of players as it actually does...) and the interplay of Boon and Doom you suggest as a fix, that you have not played the game.

No, I haven't played the game. I've read the game--several versions of it, as its been developed for Conan and Star Trek. Some details have changed, but I get the gist.

In the same way that I know I don't like rpgs where the dice have been replaced with a deck of playing cards, I don't have to actually play it. I can read and understand the rules, and I can make a determination from there--as most people do.

This whole, "Try it, you'll like it" bit is something I've seen from Modiphius from day one. "It plays better than it reads," is something I've seen them say often.

I don't need to play an rpg that uses a lot of charts (where you refer to charts for results), like the old, original Top Secret game (not TSSI) to know that it's not my cup of tea.



I'll tell you what I do know. Conan. I know a lot about the Howard stories, the pastiches, the comics, and the rpgs. And, I know that the 2d20 game system is a bad fit for that universe.
 
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Water Bob

Adventurer
You are indeed operating under assumption as you so clearly state... and to go from there to a 'fix' is entirely illogical - like assuming that your won't like chocolate cake because someone else doesn't and before you have ever eaten chocolate, suggesting that it instead taste like coffee, which you have only heard good things about and once again not tried yourself...

This thread started as a 'glad tiding' thing and rapidly descended into largely unfounded and untested criticism - some valid on the general issues some have with metagame mechanics in general, but much more that is misleading insofar as it is specific to the Doom mechanic without any attempt to try the mechanic out before assuming 'it's a problem', deconstructing it from a read-through or even complete assumption, and suggesting something touted as being better.

Amazing really...



Two questions for you, as a person who has played the game, liked the game, and understands the current version of the rules. Answer "yes" or" no".

Question 1: Do PCs in 2d20 Conan gain bonus dice to use on tasks by paying DOOM to the GM--increasing the number of DOOM points the GM has to work with? Yes or no.

Question 2: Does the GM use the number of DOOM points he has in the DOOM pool to increase NPC foe abilities, activate more foes, and generally increase the obstacles that PCs must face at that time or later in the game? Yes or no.
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
No, I haven't played the game. I've read the game--several versions of it, as its been developed for Conan and Star Trek. Some details have changed, but I get the gist.

In the same way that I know I don't like rpgs where the dice have been replaced with a deck of playing cards, I don't have to actually play it. I can read and understand the rules, and I can make a determination from there--as most people do.

This whole, "Try it, you'll like it" bit is something I've seen from Modiphius from day one. "It plays better than it reads," is something I've seen them say often.

I don't need to play an rpg that uses a lot of charts (where you refer to charts for results), like the old, original Top Secret game (not TSSI) to know that it's not my cup of tea.

My experience was entirely different. I mistrusted the mechanic from reading it, I don't like metagame mechanics in general and the LOVE Conan - so was doubly ready to throw any attempt to spoil it out of the window.

I am perfectly capable of understanding rules by reading them, and like you, judge games from this once I have read them through.

So I guess this is down to a matter of perspective, or perhaps trust? Maybe not...

.... but anyway - you cannot understand how the mechanic plays from reading how it works.

Me, and no-one I know who is now playing in my game got their assumptions about Doom right, so I suspect neither do a lot of people who haven't tried it.

You can try it for free - and perhaps might conclude from what I have said that you shouldn't be so sure of your ability to divine the gameplay from a read-through.

Mophidius, or me for that matter telling you to try it before you write what amounts to pre-judgemental negative statements about it ('I haven't tried it but it needs fixing...') is not an excuse, it's a way for those who have more experience of it to advise you to take a little time to find out your assumptions are wrong.

Everyone has the right to an opinion - but not every opinion is soundly based. Should you try it and still not like it, then coming onto a widely read website and telling us how to fix the Doom mechanic will at least be a right you exercise with sufficient awareness off the issue.

You yourself said you haven't tried it, and the counter position is that you should before you pronounce judgement, to which you have said you don't need to try it.

That is not a logical position to hold unless you think you are infallible.
 
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Water Bob

Adventurer
My experience was entirely different. I mistrusted the mechanic from reading it, I don't like metagame mechanics in general and the LOVE Conan - so was doubly ready to throw any attempt to spoil it out of the window..

What is your experience with Mongoose's Conan? Played a lot of it? Read it? GMed it?

If you know Mongoose's d20 game, what is it that you like better about 2d20 rather than Mongoose's d20 version?
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
Two questions for you, as a person who has played the game, liked the game, and understands the current version of the rules. Answer "yes" or" no".

Question 1: Do PCs in 2d20 Conan gain bonus dice to use on tasks by paying DOOM to the GM--increasing the number of DOOM points the GM has to work with? Yes or no.

Question 2: Does the GM use the number of DOOM points he has in the DOOM pool to increase NPC foe abilities, activate more foes, and generally increase the obstacles that PCs must face at that time or later in the game? Yes or no.

1. Yes - when they choose to.

2. Yes - when they choose to - although foes abilities are not increased, they are paid for with Doom in some (the minority) of cases.

Doom is however their Momentum in many ways, as they don't get that at all.

Question - why do you think this system is a problem? Player abuse? GM abuse?

Doom can add to dice pool, but extra dice comes from various source and is capped at 5d20 at most. Parrying gets talked about far too much - parrying weapons get a free parry each turn, skilled users of such weapons get two doom-free parries per turn... the system needs to be judged as a holistic whole which is only possible in play.

One cannot judge a system by a single mechanic in isolation - and there is already a great deal of erroneous assumption and misleading information in this thread in this regard it is genuinely surprising to me.
 
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Caliburn101

Explorer
What is your experience with Mongoose's Conan? Played a lot of it? Read it? GMed it?

If you know Mongoose's d20 game, what is it that you like better about 2d20 rather than Mongoose's d20 version?

I bought every book up to the release of the second edition then a few more. I liked what it did with D&D, but I never thought D&D was a good fit for Conan. Just the HP and level mechanic flies in the face of Conan - even with what Mongoose did with it (and they did a great job considering the system and the level of pastiche they introduced) they couldn't have an experienced Conan (one only has to look at the statblocks they published for him) felled by a poisoned ring, a single sphere of flashfire etc. without constantly rolling '1's.

The Sorcery wasn't bad, but once again didn't cost what it should, or was as fearsome as the stories.

D&D is a vehicle for epic fantasy, and heroes eventually end up with superhero abilities that would kill the X-Men...and S&S sits at the other end of the spectrum. Conan defined S&S...

Everyone is focussing on Doom and not looking at the whole game. The skills system is great, the Sorcery chapter is by far the best rpg representation of the corrupting and soul-sucking source of power I read in the books. But no - we all go around and around talking about Doom like it's the only important thing.

I genuinely feel sorry for Mophidius - I've seen threads where they get roundly attacked for their use of the mechanic and the system works really well.

C'est la Vie I suppose.
 
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