CONAN Is Finally Here!

After appearing three years running in the 10 Most Anticipated RPGs of the Year list, it seems that Conan's streak has come to and end - because Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of has been released! You can get it right now from Modiphius' web store, and will be able to get it elsewhere from tomorrow. PDF only, for the moment. You can also grab a book of six adventures, Jewelled Thrones of the Earth. Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed of is based on Modiphius' own 2d20 system (which also powers their upcoming Star Trek Adventures game). The book is now available for review in the reviews area.

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[Caliburn101]

I think most you (even the ones defending 2d20's "Meta-Game" mechanics) are missing the point behind those mechanics.

I think over the years, especially recently from D&D play-test surverys, is that Story-telling and Roleplaying are at heart of an RPG.

Some aspects of the "Meta-Game" mechanics of the 2d20 system are aimed specifically at enhancing Story-telling. Such as troop reinforcements and environmental effects.

For Mutant Chronicles (the original 2d20 system game) the mechanic is called Dark Symmetry. And frankly the game just wouldn't function well without it, because the Dark Symmetry is so interwoven into the Setting. If fact the characters are supposed to understand the presence of Dark Symmetry almost as something tangible. Its necessary to feel that impending doom always pervading among them.

In Conan, they just re-worded it to "Doom".

Where I believe Modiphius went wrong is they should have re-hired Jay Little, gone back to the drawing books and the designed a system from the ground up aimed specifically at Sword & Sorcery. So their "meta-game" mechanic should of been aimed at making Combat more visceral, brutal and cinematic. I think that would of had a better effect. Because when reading Conan, I don't get this pervading doom feeling on the horizon, but I do get the sense of brutality, a gritty dangerous feeling that you are on your own and nobody is going to save you.

Impending doom and the ultimate pointlessness of the effort to carve out civilisation from barbarism, honour from savagery and compassion from a pitiless cosmos are at the very heart of Conan - the Conan set in the middle of the Cthulhu Mythos, the one where the most awful sorceries and inhuman monstrosities exist alongside human decadence, pettiness and cruelty.

I think you may have missed that...

The reason you may not see it in the Conan stories is that Conan is such an exception to the rule. Perhaps you need to pay more attention to the rest of the characters - how quickly they die, get corrupted, betray, even when they were decent to some extent at the start. Those that don't fall get killed, frequently - just look at the sailors who save Conan only to die under Belit's crew's blades, leaving only Conan standing. Look at how many times Conan is helpless, only to call upon amazing inner resources to turn the tables on long odds, and how many times even when that isn't enough, fate intervenes and he is saved by circumstances or third parties.

These things in juxtaposition are actually surprisingly well served by the Doom and Fortune mechanics - and saying that Doom points doesn't facilitate visceral combat is the exact opposite of the experience me and my players have every week when I run it - so I can only conclude you haven't run it or played in it.

It is however true that reading it without playing it concerned me in a similar vein to you, and only playing demonstrated to me that I had been worried about nothing.

I don't like FATE because of it's metagamey feel, and I don't like the idea of such mechanics in general, but I like Conan and it's mechanics.

They are not mechanics that are easy to make accurate presumptions about - they need to be run with before forming an opinion. In a way that is sad, because too many will not try it because of this presumption.

That said - I don't think it will work for the upbeat cosmos of Star Trek - it is key to a 'doomed' and dark gameworld, not an episodic science fiction morality play in the style of Star Trek (which I love btw...).

So please understand, I get your point - I just think you've made it with entirely the wrong 2d20 genre.

 

[Water Bob]

Just to jump in here: I like what you're saying, but I really do not think the game needs MORE tokens.

Good point. I don't like all those tokens, either.

I'm operating under the assumption that DOOM points are integral to the game. From what I've seen, they are. PCs can't find success at any of the harder tasks except by getting exceptionally lucky on the dice without purchasing extra dice. And, a lot of things are triggered by DOOM for the GM.

I'd like to throw out DOOM all together, but from my POV, it seems that the core of the 2d20 system is the give-n-take between players and GM with the DOOM pool.

If we remove the DOOM pool all together, then how does a player get extra dice for his character? How does a GM buff up an NPC or activate extra guards?

 

[Caliburn101]

CONSTRUCTIVE THOUGHT ON 2D20....DOOM POINTS...AND BOON POINTS

I've often thought about how to "fix" the meta-game aspect of the 2d20 system, as far as the Conan rpg is concerned. It's a hard nut to crack because the 2d20 is designed around that give-n-take relationship, where players build DOOM, and the GM uses DOOM to enhance obstacles down the road.

Here's a thought that I have. Let me put it out on the porch and see if the Cat will lick it up.

In other words, let's discuss, if you are so inclined.





What if DOOM was limited to an adventure? Remove the part where players generate DOOM. A GM is given a number of DOOM points to spend for the entire adventure, and that's it.

First off, players wouldn't know the number of DOOM the GM has. They can't see it or count it as they can in standard 2d20, and that would remove that meta-game aspect.

An adventure's difficulty could be measured by how many DOOM points the GM has to use in that game. It would be like a level 1-3 dugneon versus a level 4-6 dungeon. The GM has X number of DOOM he can use for this adventure. If he wants to make the adventure harder because there are five PC going through the adventure rather than the four the scenario was designed for, then the GM can add Y number of DOOM points to his total for the adventure, to make the adventure harder.

Something like that would pretty much remove the Meta-Game aspect from the game. DOOM points become the level of difficulty.






BOON Points.

As for players, they would need a new pool. Where in standard 2d20 they buy extra dice and such by paying the GM DOOM. Here, we would slightly change that so that players take from a limited pool--again this considered part of the difficulty.

The difficulty of an adventure would be measured by how many DOOM points the GM gets to use, and how man (I'll call them) BOON points, the players get to use.

Should the player know how many points the players get in the BOON pool? I don't know. We should discuss this. They will know when they've used all of them, of course. Maybe we leave it up to the GM to decide whether he lets the players know how many points are in the BOON pool.

Once all the BOON points are gone, then the player can no longer "buy" extra dice for tasks.





What do you guys think about this?

I'm thinking that, if this works, I might actually buy the game, as it will remove the problems I have with the game.

A big question will be working out how many BOON points and DOOM points players and GMs need, on average, to complete adventures.

Thoughts?

I can see that in some of your assumptions (that Doom doesn't already increase with numbers of players as it actually does...) and the interplay of Boon and Doom you suggest as a fix, that you have not played the game.

You haven't bought it even... have you at least read the free starter rules?

Perhaps be more scientific about it if you are suggesting another system would be better?

You have a theory that it is a bad mechanic from I presume third party discussion.

Play the game for long enough to really try out the Doom mechanic. If you think the mechanic still needs fixing after that, then fair enough, but some of your suggestions make it entirely clear you haven't played yet, and that's like someone attacking another persons theory without having tested it's validity first.

 

[Caliburn101]

Good point. I don't like all those tokens, either.

I'm operating under the assumption that DOOM points are integral to the game. From what I've seen, they are. PCs can't find success at any of the harder tasks except by getting exceptionally lucky on the dice without purchasing extra dice. And, a lot of things are triggered by DOOM for the GM.

I'd like to throw out DOOM all together, but from my POV, it seems that the core of the 2d20 system is the give-n-take between players and GM with the DOOM pool.

If we remove the DOOM pool all together, then how does a player get extra dice for his character? How does a GM buff up an NPC or activate extra guards?

You are indeed operating under assumption as you so clearly state... and to go from there to a 'fix' is entirely illogical - like assuming that your won't like chocolate cake because someone else doesn't and before you have ever eaten chocolate, suggesting that it instead taste like coffee, which you have only heard good things about and once again not tried yourself...

This thread started as a 'glad tiding' thing and rapidly descended into largely unfounded and untested criticism - some valid on the general issues some have with metagame mechanics in general, but much more that is misleading insofar as it is specific to the Doom mechanic without any attempt to try the mechanic out before assuming 'it's a problem', deconstructing it from a read-through or even complete assumption, and suggesting something touted as being better.

Amazing really...

 

[Water Bob]

I can see that in some of your assumptions (that Doom doesn't already increase with numbers of players as it actually does...) and the interplay of Boon and Doom you suggest as a fix, that you have not played the game.

No, I haven't played the game. I've read the game--several versions of it, as its been developed for Conan and Star Trek. Some details have changed, but I get the gist.

In the same way that I know I don't like rpgs where the dice have been replaced with a deck of playing cards, I don't have to actually play it. I can read and understand the rules, and I can make a determination from there--as most people do.

This whole, "Try it, you'll like it" bit is something I've seen from Modiphius from day one. "It plays better than it reads," is something I've seen them say often.

I don't need to play an rpg that uses a lot of charts (where you refer to charts for results), like the old, original Top Secret game (not TSSI) to know that it's not my cup of tea.



I'll tell you what I do know. Conan. I know a lot about the Howard stories, the pastiches, the comics, and the rpgs. And, I know that the 2d20 game system is a bad fit for that universe.

 

[Water Bob]

You are indeed operating under assumption as you so clearly state... and to go from there to a 'fix' is entirely illogical - like assuming that your won't like chocolate cake because someone else doesn't and before you have ever eaten chocolate, suggesting that it instead taste like coffee, which you have only heard good things about and once again not tried yourself...

This thread started as a 'glad tiding' thing and rapidly descended into largely unfounded and untested criticism - some valid on the general issues some have with metagame mechanics in general, but much more that is misleading insofar as it is specific to the Doom mechanic without any attempt to try the mechanic out before assuming 'it's a problem', deconstructing it from a read-through or even complete assumption, and suggesting something touted as being better.

Amazing really...

Two questions for you, as a person who has played the game, liked the game, and understands the current version of the rules. Answer "yes" or" no".

Question 1: Do PCs in 2d20 Conan gain bonus dice to use on tasks by paying DOOM to the GM--increasing the number of DOOM points the GM has to work with? Yes or no.

Question 2: Does the GM use the number of DOOM points he has in the DOOM pool to increase NPC foe abilities, activate more foes, and generally increase the obstacles that PCs must face at that time or later in the game? Yes or no.

 

[Caliburn101]

No, I haven't played the game. I've read the game--several versions of it, as its been developed for Conan and Star Trek. Some details have changed, but I get the gist.

In the same way that I know I don't like rpgs where the dice have been replaced with a deck of playing cards, I don't have to actually play it. I can read and understand the rules, and I can make a determination from there--as most people do.

This whole, "Try it, you'll like it" bit is something I've seen from Modiphius from day one. "It plays better than it reads," is something I've seen them say often.

I don't need to play an rpg that uses a lot of charts (where you refer to charts for results), like the old, original Top Secret game (not TSSI) to know that it's not my cup of tea.

My experience was entirely different. I mistrusted the mechanic from reading it, I don't like metagame mechanics in general and the LOVE Conan - so was doubly ready to throw any attempt to spoil it out of the window.

I am perfectly capable of understanding rules by reading them, and like you, judge games from this once I have read them through.

So I guess this is down to a matter of perspective, or perhaps trust? Maybe not...

.... but anyway - you cannot understand how the mechanic plays from reading how it works.

Me, and no-one I know who is now playing in my game got their assumptions about Doom right, so I suspect neither do a lot of people who haven't tried it.

You can try it for free - and perhaps might conclude from what I have said that you shouldn't be so sure of your ability to divine the gameplay from a read-through.

Mophidius, or me for that matter telling you to try it before you write what amounts to pre-judgemental negative statements about it ('I haven't tried it but it needs fixing...') is not an excuse, it's a way for those who have more experience of it to advise you to take a little time to find out your assumptions are wrong.

Everyone has the right to an opinion - but not every opinion is soundly based. Should you try it and still not like it, then coming onto a widely read website and telling us how to fix the Doom mechanic will at least be a right you exercise with sufficient awareness off the issue.

You yourself said you haven't tried it, and the counter position is that you should before you pronounce judgement, to which you have said you don't need to try it.

That is not a logical position to hold unless you think you are infallible.

 

[Water Bob]

My experience was entirely different. I mistrusted the mechanic from reading it, I don't like metagame mechanics in general and the LOVE Conan - so was doubly ready to throw any attempt to spoil it out of the window..

What is your experience with Mongoose's Conan? Played a lot of it? Read it? GMed it?

If you know Mongoose's d20 game, what is it that you like better about 2d20 rather than Mongoose's d20 version?

 

[Caliburn101]

Two questions for you, as a person who has played the game, liked the game, and understands the current version of the rules. Answer "yes" or" no".

Question 1: Do PCs in 2d20 Conan gain bonus dice to use on tasks by paying DOOM to the GM--increasing the number of DOOM points the GM has to work with? Yes or no.

Question 2: Does the GM use the number of DOOM points he has in the DOOM pool to increase NPC foe abilities, activate more foes, and generally increase the obstacles that PCs must face at that time or later in the game? Yes or no.

1. Yes - when they choose to.

2. Yes - when they choose to - although foes abilities are not increased, they are paid for with Doom in some (the minority) of cases.

Doom is however their Momentum in many ways, as they don't get that at all.

Question - why do you think this system is a problem? Player abuse? GM abuse?

Doom can add to dice pool, but extra dice comes from various source and is capped at 5d20 at most. Parrying gets talked about far too much - parrying weapons get a free parry each turn, skilled users of such weapons get two doom-free parries per turn... the system needs to be judged as a holistic whole which is only possible in play.

One cannot judge a system by a single mechanic in isolation - and there is already a great deal of erroneous assumption and misleading information in this thread in this regard it is genuinely surprising to me.

 

[Caliburn101]

What is your experience with Mongoose's Conan? Played a lot of it? Read it? GMed it?

If you know Mongoose's d20 game, what is it that you like better about 2d20 rather than Mongoose's d20 version?

I bought every book up to the release of the second edition then a few more. I liked what it did with D&D, but I never thought D&D was a good fit for Conan. Just the HP and level mechanic flies in the face of Conan - even with what Mongoose did with it (and they did a great job considering the system and the level of pastiche they introduced) they couldn't have an experienced Conan (one only has to look at the statblocks they published for him) felled by a poisoned ring, a single sphere of flashfire etc. without constantly rolling '1's.

The Sorcery wasn't bad, but once again didn't cost what it should, or was as fearsome as the stories.

D&D is a vehicle for epic fantasy, and heroes eventually end up with superhero abilities that would kill the X-Men...and S&S sits at the other end of the spectrum. Conan defined S&S...

Everyone is focussing on Doom and not looking at the whole game. The skills system is great, the Sorcery chapter is by far the best rpg representation of the corrupting and soul-sucking source of power I read in the books. But no - we all go around and around talking about Doom like it's the only important thing.

I genuinely feel sorry for Mophidius - I've seen threads where they get roundly attacked for their use of the mechanic and the system works really well.

C'est la Vie I suppose.