This is long, but I think it’s important to all of us that have or are thinking to buy the book--
These are sections I have pulled out of the book for further study, discussion, and clarification.
Since my play by post game will soon involve some combat, I'm hoping to have as much of this clear as possible.
My advice is to read these passages from the book over and just think about the game. I’ve added a few comments in BOLD type.
Let's have a look (sorry I did not put the page numbers):
------------------------------------------------------------------
Defense Value = 10 + size + Parry or Dodge Bonus
Seems clear.
Changing between the two modes of defense is a free action and can be done each time the character is attacked if desired, but must be done before the opponent makes his attack roll.
Can you switch to a parry when the feint affects your dodge? Keep reading.
Sometimes you cannot use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you cannot react to a blow, you cannot use your Dexterity bonus to DV. (If you do not have a Dexterity bonus, nothing happens.)
Sounds much like DnD and even Spycraft (which uses a class defense value and Damage Reduction armor system like Conan.
Dodge Bonus: Any situation that denies you your Dexterity Bonus also denies you dodge bonuses.
I wonder if the authors knew just how much of a big impact this has on the game. I’ll reference this single passage often (and call it “the one”) since it seems to unbalance and contradict the other mechanics mentioned. Other passages seem not to include this in their descriptions. In addition to the Dodge Bonuses on pg 160, is this mentioned again?
When characters are caught flat-footed, they lose all dodge and parry bonuses, so their Defense Value will always be the base of 10, assuming their size is medium.
Pretty neat and nasty. Harsh compared to DND or Spycraft but OK since there is DR for armor (unless finessed).
Sneak Attack: Any time the thief’s target would be denied dodge or parry bonus to Defense Value (whether the target has a dodge or not), or when the thief flanks the target, the thief’s attack deals extra damage.
Denied dodge or parry bonus means flat-footed or hanging from a cliff. Flanking – OK, understood. -- Now -- Denied DEX bonus to dodge (like when feinted), if following “the one” quote from above, means you’re denied your total dodge bonus. A good question is here and clarification is needed regarding complete loss of Dodge. -- Other than flat-footed or stunned, there’s no mention to losing parry bonus in the book (I think).
Feint: If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to DV (if any).
OK – You lose a few DEX bonus points to Dodge. -- Now - if still following “the one” quote, you lose both your DEX mod and Dodge bonus. This results in a significant loss of defense compared to DnD or Spycraft where you only lose your DEX mod. No mention here of Parry at all. So feint cannot affect Parry defense? -- Clarification on these points needed.
Grappling: You lose your Dexterity bonus to DV (if you have one) against opponents you are not grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)
So you lose DEX bonus to Dodge. -- But - if following “the one” quote from above, you lose all Dodge against opponents you are not grappling because you lose your DEX mod to DV. You can still use total Dodge value against person holding you. No mention to Parry vs either opponent.
Pinned: When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your DV against opponents other than the one pinning you.
If we follow “the one” reference to Dodge Bonuses, then being pinned (-4 to DV) is better than simply being grappled (total loss of Dodge) when attacked by those other than the person holding you? But doesn't being pinned mean you're grappled too? What penalties are in place and what you can and cannot do when pinned need to be clarified.
Helpless: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to DV against melee attacks, but no penalty to DV against ranged attacks. A helpless defender cannot use any Dexterity bonus to DV. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to Armor Class as if it were –5 (and a thief or pirate can sneak attack him).
Just read this one. Obviously Armor Class is out of place. But does it total –9 vs. melee attacks and –5 vs. ranged attacks due to a Dex of 0? A clear revision is really needed here describing the penalties and what defenses you can use.
Stunned: The character loses all dodge and parry bonuses to DV and can take no actions.
Ah ha! Finally a situation that mentions clearly a loss of both dodge and parry bonuses to DV. Here, sneak attacks are welcome I’m sure since you are denied dodge and parry bonuses.
Touch Attacks: Your opponent’s DV against a touch attack does not include any shield bonus or Parry Bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, dodge bonuses and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Full Dodging OK – no Parry at all. Got it. -- But if feinted first and following “the one” passage above -- you lose Dodge and you cannot parry a touch attack? So - you're totally defenseless and worse off than being grappled or pinned?
Shields: All shields have a shield bonus. This added to the Defense Value of any character who is parrying. Also, the shield bonus to Defense Value of any character who is dodging a ranged attack.
Adds to parry, adds to dodge when ranged attack. Got it. No mention if shield adds to flat-footed DV of 10.
Summary here:
- Ability descriptions: No mention of STR modifier adding to Parry. Dexterity says it adds to Defense Value (not only Dodge), provided the character can react to the attack.
WOW – maybe it was intended to follow the DnD and Spycraft model to have DEX only modify Defense and that is why we have so many typos and unclear rule questions?
However here:
Dodging: Dodge bonus + Dex mod. + other
Parry: Parry bonus + Str mod + other
Here it clearly says STR mod adds to Parry. Not DEX like in the Ability score section.
---------------------------------------------------
We've all been trying to make sense of these in bits and pieces. But it does look like a variety of thoughts and methods were considered and then not fully put together in a smooth set of mechanics.
These passages have led to questions about shields, Defense Values, Sneak Attacks, Feints, Flat-footed situations, and many others.
The most reoccurring ones I see are these:
Does loss of DEX mod also mean total loss of Dodge?
It seems the book indicates both “yes” and “no”. There seem to be multiple references to loss of DEX mod (like in DnD and Spycraft) and ”the one” single mention that this loss also results in total Dodge Defense loss. Some say these passages also infer a total loss of Parry Defense as well (though this is never stated).
When it says you lose you DEX mod, what happens to Parry since it uses a STR mod?
It seems the book first had DEX adding to Parry (mentions DV in ability score section) and then switched to STR. Other references to loss of DEX mod then leave out Parry completely.
So here are 7 questions that I hope to clarify for my game:
1. Do you let STR modify Parry or do you let DEX modify all Defense Values? [The book says both]
2. Do you allow a successful feint to do:
A) target loses Dex bonus to dodge [as it says in book]
B) target loses all Dodge Defense [referencing ”the one” statement made in book regarding Dodge Bonuses]
C) target loses both Dodge and Parry Defense [even though the book never says or infers this]
3. Do you allow sneak attacks when it states “does not allow target to use DEX bonus to DV (if any)”? [The book says “no” since there is only a DEX mod. loss to Dodge. But then indirectly says “yes” by saying in “the one” that a loss of DEX bonus causes a total loss of Dodge.]
4. When grappling, what Defenses do you allow (both against other opponents and foe grappling you)? How does Parry fit in with grappling? [Book only addresses loss of DEX mod to other opponents]
5. Being pinned does the following:
A) –4 to both Dodge and Parry vs other opponents [as in book, -4 DV]
B) –4 to Parry but no Dodge allowed since immobile
C) something else.
6. What kind of defenses do you allow a helpless person? [book unclear]
7. Do you allow a touch attack to follow a feint? [The book is unclear regarding feinting as above. If you choose B or C from question 2, then being feinted is potentially worse than being grappled or pinned since you would only have a DV of 10 against a following touch attack.]
----------------------------
To me, these passages and questions are most interesting. I'm sure I have not found them all or asked them all, so if someone has more to add please do so.
Maybe by asking these we can assist Mongoose with the improved printing of the book.
These are sections I have pulled out of the book for further study, discussion, and clarification.
Since my play by post game will soon involve some combat, I'm hoping to have as much of this clear as possible.
My advice is to read these passages from the book over and just think about the game. I’ve added a few comments in BOLD type.
Let's have a look (sorry I did not put the page numbers):
------------------------------------------------------------------
Defense Value = 10 + size + Parry or Dodge Bonus
Seems clear.
Changing between the two modes of defense is a free action and can be done each time the character is attacked if desired, but must be done before the opponent makes his attack roll.
Can you switch to a parry when the feint affects your dodge? Keep reading.
Sometimes you cannot use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you cannot react to a blow, you cannot use your Dexterity bonus to DV. (If you do not have a Dexterity bonus, nothing happens.)
Sounds much like DnD and even Spycraft (which uses a class defense value and Damage Reduction armor system like Conan.
Dodge Bonus: Any situation that denies you your Dexterity Bonus also denies you dodge bonuses.
I wonder if the authors knew just how much of a big impact this has on the game. I’ll reference this single passage often (and call it “the one”) since it seems to unbalance and contradict the other mechanics mentioned. Other passages seem not to include this in their descriptions. In addition to the Dodge Bonuses on pg 160, is this mentioned again?
When characters are caught flat-footed, they lose all dodge and parry bonuses, so their Defense Value will always be the base of 10, assuming their size is medium.
Pretty neat and nasty. Harsh compared to DND or Spycraft but OK since there is DR for armor (unless finessed).
Sneak Attack: Any time the thief’s target would be denied dodge or parry bonus to Defense Value (whether the target has a dodge or not), or when the thief flanks the target, the thief’s attack deals extra damage.
Denied dodge or parry bonus means flat-footed or hanging from a cliff. Flanking – OK, understood. -- Now -- Denied DEX bonus to dodge (like when feinted), if following “the one” quote from above, means you’re denied your total dodge bonus. A good question is here and clarification is needed regarding complete loss of Dodge. -- Other than flat-footed or stunned, there’s no mention to losing parry bonus in the book (I think).
Feint: If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to DV (if any).
OK – You lose a few DEX bonus points to Dodge. -- Now - if still following “the one” quote, you lose both your DEX mod and Dodge bonus. This results in a significant loss of defense compared to DnD or Spycraft where you only lose your DEX mod. No mention here of Parry at all. So feint cannot affect Parry defense? -- Clarification on these points needed.
Grappling: You lose your Dexterity bonus to DV (if you have one) against opponents you are not grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)
So you lose DEX bonus to Dodge. -- But - if following “the one” quote from above, you lose all Dodge against opponents you are not grappling because you lose your DEX mod to DV. You can still use total Dodge value against person holding you. No mention to Parry vs either opponent.
Pinned: When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your DV against opponents other than the one pinning you.
If we follow “the one” reference to Dodge Bonuses, then being pinned (-4 to DV) is better than simply being grappled (total loss of Dodge) when attacked by those other than the person holding you? But doesn't being pinned mean you're grappled too? What penalties are in place and what you can and cannot do when pinned need to be clarified.
Helpless: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to DV against melee attacks, but no penalty to DV against ranged attacks. A helpless defender cannot use any Dexterity bonus to DV. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to Armor Class as if it were –5 (and a thief or pirate can sneak attack him).
Just read this one. Obviously Armor Class is out of place. But does it total –9 vs. melee attacks and –5 vs. ranged attacks due to a Dex of 0? A clear revision is really needed here describing the penalties and what defenses you can use.
Stunned: The character loses all dodge and parry bonuses to DV and can take no actions.
Ah ha! Finally a situation that mentions clearly a loss of both dodge and parry bonuses to DV. Here, sneak attacks are welcome I’m sure since you are denied dodge and parry bonuses.
Touch Attacks: Your opponent’s DV against a touch attack does not include any shield bonus or Parry Bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, dodge bonuses and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Full Dodging OK – no Parry at all. Got it. -- But if feinted first and following “the one” passage above -- you lose Dodge and you cannot parry a touch attack? So - you're totally defenseless and worse off than being grappled or pinned?
Shields: All shields have a shield bonus. This added to the Defense Value of any character who is parrying. Also, the shield bonus to Defense Value of any character who is dodging a ranged attack.
Adds to parry, adds to dodge when ranged attack. Got it. No mention if shield adds to flat-footed DV of 10.
Summary here:
- Ability descriptions: No mention of STR modifier adding to Parry. Dexterity says it adds to Defense Value (not only Dodge), provided the character can react to the attack.
WOW – maybe it was intended to follow the DnD and Spycraft model to have DEX only modify Defense and that is why we have so many typos and unclear rule questions?
However here:
Dodging: Dodge bonus + Dex mod. + other
Parry: Parry bonus + Str mod + other
Here it clearly says STR mod adds to Parry. Not DEX like in the Ability score section.
---------------------------------------------------
We've all been trying to make sense of these in bits and pieces. But it does look like a variety of thoughts and methods were considered and then not fully put together in a smooth set of mechanics.
These passages have led to questions about shields, Defense Values, Sneak Attacks, Feints, Flat-footed situations, and many others.
The most reoccurring ones I see are these:
Does loss of DEX mod also mean total loss of Dodge?
It seems the book indicates both “yes” and “no”. There seem to be multiple references to loss of DEX mod (like in DnD and Spycraft) and ”the one” single mention that this loss also results in total Dodge Defense loss. Some say these passages also infer a total loss of Parry Defense as well (though this is never stated).
When it says you lose you DEX mod, what happens to Parry since it uses a STR mod?
It seems the book first had DEX adding to Parry (mentions DV in ability score section) and then switched to STR. Other references to loss of DEX mod then leave out Parry completely.
So here are 7 questions that I hope to clarify for my game:
1. Do you let STR modify Parry or do you let DEX modify all Defense Values? [The book says both]
2. Do you allow a successful feint to do:
A) target loses Dex bonus to dodge [as it says in book]
B) target loses all Dodge Defense [referencing ”the one” statement made in book regarding Dodge Bonuses]
C) target loses both Dodge and Parry Defense [even though the book never says or infers this]
3. Do you allow sneak attacks when it states “does not allow target to use DEX bonus to DV (if any)”? [The book says “no” since there is only a DEX mod. loss to Dodge. But then indirectly says “yes” by saying in “the one” that a loss of DEX bonus causes a total loss of Dodge.]
4. When grappling, what Defenses do you allow (both against other opponents and foe grappling you)? How does Parry fit in with grappling? [Book only addresses loss of DEX mod to other opponents]
5. Being pinned does the following:
A) –4 to both Dodge and Parry vs other opponents [as in book, -4 DV]
B) –4 to Parry but no Dodge allowed since immobile
C) something else.
6. What kind of defenses do you allow a helpless person? [book unclear]
7. Do you allow a touch attack to follow a feint? [The book is unclear regarding feinting as above. If you choose B or C from question 2, then being feinted is potentially worse than being grappled or pinned since you would only have a DV of 10 against a following touch attack.]
----------------------------
To me, these passages and questions are most interesting. I'm sure I have not found them all or asked them all, so if someone has more to add please do so.
Maybe by asking these we can assist Mongoose with the improved printing of the book.
