Concentration and Tumble Checks?

[Dursk Starkfire]

Song and Silence actually has some good modifiers for tumbling.
Circumstances
bad lighting (-2)
dusty or uneven floor (-2)
light debris (-2)
wet floor (-4)
moderate debris (-4)
tumble begins/ends in darkness (-4)
unworked stone (-6)
knee-deep water (-6)
heavy debris (-6)
pitch black (-6)

Opposed Tumble Checks: It's logical that it would be
tougher to tumble around an experienced combatant than a
weaker foe. Rather than allow a successful Tumble check to
eliminate the chance for attacks of opportunity altogether,
allow the defender to make a Reflex save (DC equal to the
Tumble check result). If the tumbler is actually moving
through the defender's space, a +10 bonus applies to this
Reflex save. A defender who makes the save may make an
attack of opportunity against the tumbling character, failure
means no attack of opportunity is allowed. Failed Tumble
checks generate attacks of opportunity normally.

 

[Legildur]

Dursk Starkfire wrote:

Rather than allow a successful Tumble check to eliminate the chance for attacks of opportunity altogether,
allow the defender to make a Reflex save (DC equal to the
Tumble check result).

But, as Kershek rightly points out, using Reflex save doesn't scale with Tumble. That is, Tumble skill modifier increases more rapidly than Reflex save.

We had a total party kill where an evil priest clobbered my elven monk1/wizard6 (evoker) with an AOO against his Concentration adjusted AC just as he was casting defensively to try and save the remaining party members. Oh well.

I also lost a human Monk 6 when he tried to tumble past a raging orc barbarian - got clobbered by a AOO on the way past (AC30 or something like that) and then got cleaned up on the following round with a great axe critical.

So, even though I've lost 2 characters to these house rules, I still strongly support using them - otherwise Tumble is just an insanely good way to get around the battlefield. And Concentration gets abusive as well as the wizard stands before the Stone Giant and casts with impunity.

 

[Spatzimaus]

To cast defensively, the DC shouldn't depend on the BAB of the people attacking you, because if you're being threatened by multiple people one of them is getting a freebie.

I wanted a system where you were less likely to fail the check, but where succeeding wasn't as powerful as it is now. The current system is practically impossible for a low-level caster to use, but at high levels it's impossible to fail. Try this:

To cast defensively, make a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). Failing the check causes the spell to be lost. Succeeding raises your AC by 1 point for every 2 points you exceed the DC by (rounding fractions down, of course); it's a dodge bonus that only applies to AoOs caused by the casting action.

Example: I'm a level 5 Wizard. I have AC 20, Concentration +8, and I'm casting a 3rd-level spell. I decide I want to try to avoid the AoO. DC is 13, so I fail on a 1, 2, 3, or 4 (20% of the time). If I roll a 5 or 6, I keep the spell but my AC is unchanged. If I roll 7 or 8, my AC is +1, and so on all the way up to +7 AC for rolling a 19 or 20.

The Feat "Combat Casting" allows you to Take 10 on this check. In the example given, this'd allow him to automatically cast defensively on all of his spells, but the AC boost would be small.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I think most of these fixes are jsut as bad as the problem if not worse. Whether it's tumble or concentration the charactor is spending there hard earned skill points(and depedning on the class they are really hard earned, check the average sorcerer or cleric and tell me again how concentration is automatic) in an ability to get decent at it, and the counters here are things everyone gets for free. That's way worse than concentration and tumble checks eventuallybecoming automatic.(sort of like every other skill check). If you want the checks to be oposed in some way by the opponents skill invent a new skill, "counter" and it wuld funciotn like an oridnary opposed check sort of how some one needs to spend points in spot or listen to have any chance in heck of noticing virtualy every rogue.

 

[Kershek]

I think most of these fixes are jsut as bad as the problem if not worse. Whether it's tumble or concentration the charactor is spending there hard earned skill points(and depedning on the class they are really hard earned, check the average sorcerer or cleric and tell me again how concentration is automatic) in an ability to get decent at it, and the counters here are things everyone gets for free. That's way worse than concentration and tumble checks eventuallybecoming automatic.(sort of like every other skill check). If you want the checks to be oposed in some way by the opponents skill invent a new skill, "counter" and it wuld funciotn like an oridnary opposed check sort of how some one needs to spend points in spot or listen to have any chance in heck of noticing virtualy every rogue.

I disagree. If a rogue is trying to tumble past an ogre it's up to the rogue to get by without getting touched, not up to the Ogre to spend more points just to do something he already knows how to do (swing at someone). Reactionary actions shouldn't require their own skills, or an AoO would need a skill.

 

[Clefton Twain]

I can't think of any great remedy for Tumble at this point but how's this for Concentration:

15 + (spell level X number of threatening combatants).

Let's say there are two people threatening you and you're casting a 5th level spell:

15 + 10=25

You'd need to make the Concentration check twice--once for each threatening combatant. If you fail, they get an AoO (or, possibly, the spell is lost). So if you fail one, one guy gets an AoO (or the spell is lost, whichever).

So if you're a 9th-level wizard casting a 5th-level spell, it can still be challenging but not *too* challenging.

We'll assume this wizard has maxxed out Concentration and has a Constitution modifier of +1.

DC=25.
12 (Concentration ranks) + 1 (Constitution modifier)=13. So the wizard has to roll a 12 to make the roll.

And it becomes even easier--8--if the wizard has the Combat Casting feat.

It's definitely harder than having to make a straight 20 DC roll (15 + spell level 5), but not impossible by any means. It makes the Combat Casting Feat worthwhile but doesn't give you automatic successes. And it would discourage casting when you're surrounded by 3+ opponents.

Let's take a pretty extreme case--a 17th level wizard casting a 9th level spell, so:

DC=42 (15+(9X3))

20 (Concentration ranks) +1 (Constitution score) + Combat Casting Feat (+4) 25. Said wizard has to roll a 17...pretty high, huh?

But if the wizard is only surrounded by TWO opponents, then said wizard need only roll a 9 because the DC drops to 33.

And let's not forget that the wizard still gets to make a Concentration check for any damage he/she takes...factor in a Constitution buff spell, maybe mirror image, blur, invisibility, and it's still not going to be that difficult to cast the spell on the defensive.

This theory is still half-baked so it's bound to have flaws. Suggestions? Opinions?

[Edited to fix a couple of stupid typos]

--CT

 

[IceBear]

I understand what people are saying about Reflex save not scaling, but using the attack bonus just seems wrong too. I can think of a couple monsters with high attack bonuses that I just can't picture reacting quickly to a tumbler.

As was pointed out, making it too hard to tumble is hurting the PC who spent valuable skill points on these skills, and with proper use of all the modifiers for tumbling in Song and Silence can help reduce the Tumble check.

Allowing a Reflex save (as per Song and Silence I think) just means that once a rogue hits +14 Tumble it isn't guaranteed that he will succeed. The rogue spent a lot of his skill points to get to that point so he still should succeed most of the time. However, all it takes is someone to roll a 20 on their Reflex save and no matter how high the tumble check was, the rogue is taking an AoO.

That's why I think I'll use the Song and Silence variant. It's an offical variant, and I don't want to screw the PCs too much. If my group still feels that Tumbling is too good, then maybe we'll look at another variant.

Edit: Possibly, to reflex experience, I might add the defender's level to the Reflex save.

IceBear

 

[Dimwhit]

A lot of people talk about Reflex saves not scaling. Isn't that the point? Seems to me that Tumble is there to make someone harder to hit in when moving through threatened areas. The higher the level and tumble mod, the tougher it should be to hit a Rogue (as an example) when he moves like that.

I was opposed, at first, to using any variant. I always thought that it was unfair to someone using the Tumble skill. Be we have the Reflex variant (reflex save vs. tumble result - +10 to the save if moving through the square). I've come to prefer doing it that way. It's still not too tough when my 12th level Rogue tumbles (he has a +22). On the other hand, my last tumble roll was a 2, so the Reflex DC was 24. Very makeable for high-level NPCs.

It all works great.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, I agree with you Dimwhit. How you feel about it depends on your viewpoint.

I agree, the character who is a good tumbler spent a lot of skillpoints on tumbling, so to use the attack roll as the DC can make it next to impossible to tumble unless you max out tumbling (at the expense of other skills).

The Reflex save allows you to remove the 100% guarantee that you will succeed, but still make your skillpoints useful.

IceBear