D&D 5E Concentration mechanic can ruin plots in adventures

[Oofta]

Distinguishing between what a monster and an NPC is capable of is a weird splitting of hairs IMHO. Is a bandit an NPC or a monster? An incubus? Because in my current campaign the former never had much of a personality, I didn't come up with any detailed motivations. The incubus? Well in past campaign he was a central NPC in my cast of characters. Was my red dragon that I had levels of sorcerer as per the guidelines in the DMG an NPC or were they still a monster?

Or take the Flamewrath from Prince's of the Apocalypse. They're human, but they have a special version of fire shield that never goes away. Were the authors of the mod "cheating"?

I think it's silly to make that call. If an NPC or monster needs a special ability to make the story work and it's in line with their CR I give it to them. I mean, sure, if the PCs want to gain that power they can. They just need to give themselves completely over to a cult, or go through something that will drive them insane. In either case they'll become NPCs because they now work for the bad guys, but it's always an option.

Same way that I often give special boons to PCs.

 

[billd91]

good thing this is 5e and not 1e.

Ultimately, it doesn’t matter. This is mostly unnecessary nitpicking. Whether some NPC needs to strictly follow PC generation rules is and always has been more of a personal preference than a rule to slavishly follow. In some instances, it causes complications because those rules may not generate everything those DMs want them to. Oh, well. They can either stick to their preferences or not. And that‘s pretty much it.

 

[Krachek]

Sure, you can play that way if you like, but that might mean certain modules can't be converted to your setting. And you can't blame the rules for that, because the cause is your house rules, not he core rules.


My personal feeling is it runs against the spirit of the game, less D&D and more Accountants & Solicitors.

I still agree with you,
Knowing core assumption is the key to have a smooth relation with core rules.

 

[Xetheral]

From my standpoint, where the difference in mechanics between PC and NPCs becomes most incongruous is when the same ability is handled differently.

The most egregious example I'm familiar with is the Drow. An 11th-level PC Drow who wants to make poison attacks dealing 3d6 poison damage with their sword has to clear several hurdles: they have to be at least a third level Thief (for the Fast Hands ability to be able to apply poison as a bonus action), they're limited to one poisoned attack per round, and they have to pay 200 gold per dose of Serpent Venom. Even if they do all of the above, the 3d6 poison damage can be halved by a low DC 11 Con save.

By contrast, an 11HD Drow NPC doesn't need to spend actions poisoning their blade, all of their melee attacks are poisoned, they don't need to spend money buying poison, and the poison damage permits no saving throw at all. And if the Drow PC kills the Drow NPC, there isn't any remaining poison to loot, because somehow the NPCs always have exactly as many doses of poison as the number of attacks they make before being defeated, and never more.

Sure, the Drow NPCs with these poison mechanics may be appropriately powerful for their CR, but using them against any PC character built to focus on poison (especially a Drow) is going to make the player feel awful. Their (very) heavy investment in the ability to use poisons in combat is completely trivialized by every 11HD Drow warrior. (Heck, even the 3HD Drow warriors get actionless, free 200 GP poison on every crossbow attack, and never drop any when killed. If a PC wants to use Drow sleep poison, it's cheaper to hire 3HD Drow with unlimited doses than it is to buy just the poison!)

I would view allowing an NPC to bypass concentration restrictions (absent an artifact, or similar) as similarly problematic. When it's the same ability (e.g. poisoning weapons, spellcasting) it should function the same way for PCs and NPCs. Otherwise the rules (and the game world) come across as arbitrary.

 

[Chaosmancer]

From my standpoint, where the difference in mechanics between PC and NPCs becomes most incongruous is when the same ability is handled differently.

The most egregious example I'm familiar with is the Drow. An 11th-level PC Drow who wants to make poison attacks dealing 3d6 poison damage with their sword has to clear several hurdles: they have to be at least a third level Thief (for the Fast Hands ability to be able to apply poison as a bonus action), they're limited to one poisoned attack per round, and they have to pay 200 gold per dose of Serpent Venom. Even if they do all of the above, the 3d6 poison damage can be halved by a low DC 11 Con save.

By contrast, an 11HD Drow NPC doesn't need to spend actions poisoning their blade, all of their melee attacks are poisoned, they don't need to spend money buying poison, and the poison damage permits no saving throw at all. And if the Drow PC kills the Drow NPC, there isn't any remaining poison to loot, because somehow the NPCs always have exactly as many doses of poison as the number of attacks they make before being defeated, and never more.

Sure, the Drow NPCs with these poison mechanics may be appropriately powerful for their CR, but using them against any PC character built to focus on poison (especially a Drow) is going to make the player feel awful. Their (very) heavy investment in the ability to use poisons in combat is completely trivialized by every 11HD Drow warrior. (Heck, even the 3HD Drow warriors get actionless, free 200 GP poison on every crossbow attack, and never drop any when killed. If a PC wants to use Drow sleep poison, it's cheaper to hire 3HD Drow with unlimited doses than it is to buy just the poison!)

I would view allowing an NPC to bypass concentration restrictions (absent an artifact, or similar) as similarly problematic. When it's the same ability (e.g. poisoning weapons, spellcasting) it should function the same way for PCs and NPCs. Otherwise the rules (and the game world) come across as arbitrary.

Yeah, this is a problem. There are a few different solutions, but it is a problem.

My current solution would be a special material I am working on. It is a type of metal that absorbs the properties of any liquid it is bathed and soaked in. Drow take the weapons, put them in a pool of poison, and for some amount of time, the weapon does what it is supposed to do.

It isn't elegant (and definetly not RAW) but I love the material because it allows for all sorts of shenanigans.

 

[Beleriphon]

From my standpoint, where the difference in mechanics between PC and NPCs becomes most incongruous is when the same ability is handled differently.

The most egregious example I'm familiar with is the Drow. An 11th-level PC Drow who wants to make poison attacks dealing 3d6 poison damage with their sword has to clear several hurdles: they have to be at least a third level Thief (for the Fast Hands ability to be able to apply poison as a bonus action), they're limited to one poisoned attack per round, and they have to pay 200 gold per dose of Serpent Venom. Even if they do all of the above, the 3d6 poison damage can be halved by a low DC 11 Con save.

By contrast, an 11HD Drow NPC doesn't need to spend actions poisoning their blade, all of their melee attacks are poisoned, they don't need to spend money buying poison, and the poison damage permits no saving throw at all. And if the Drow PC kills the Drow NPC, there isn't any remaining poison to loot, because somehow the NPCs always have exactly as many doses of poison as the number of attacks they make before being defeated, and never more.

Sure, the Drow NPCs with these poison mechanics may be appropriately powerful for their CR, but using them against any PC character built to focus on poison (especially a Drow) is going to make the player feel awful. Their (very) heavy investment in the ability to use poisons in combat is completely trivialized by every 11HD Drow warrior. (Heck, even the 3HD Drow warriors get actionless, free 200 GP poison on every crossbow attack, and never drop any when killed. If a PC wants to use Drow sleep poison, it's cheaper to hire 3HD Drow with unlimited doses than it is to buy just the poison!)

I would view allowing an NPC to bypass concentration restrictions (absent an artifact, or similar) as similarly problematic. When it's the same ability (e.g. poisoning weapons, spellcasting) it should function the same way for PCs and NPCs. Otherwise the rules (and the game world) come across as arbitrary.

Which is fine, but here's a thought for you, and it is purely from a game perspective: Would you want the players doing the same thing the poison using (and spider themed) drow can do every single combat round, for every attack they make?

In many ways there are decisions made because D&D is a game. The divide between the way NPCs and PCs are designed is one of them. In a lot of ways D&D isn't a reality simulator, it is an adventure interface for a fictional world. It is a way to turn fantasy adventure stories into a game. On the back end, so the fictional reality part, an NPC wizard and an PC wizard are doing largely the same stuff. The NPC game stats don't reflect that because the NPC is meant to be an antagonist for the a whole group, and they'll probably be killed in their first encounter so nobody really worries if they have Arcane Recovery or whatever because it will never be used.

Drow have a spider theme, so some of their damage is poison. What's the rationale? Not sure, but we could say they soak the weapons in a special bath of spider venom before they leave their underdark cities. So, yes player you can get go soak your character's weapons in such a bath, if you can sneak into a city full of drow warriors who all hate your character. Good luck.

 

[Helldritch]

Lolth in all her wisdom and power allows some of her faithfull to make all the weapons they carry poisonous. Of course there is a price for that awesome power. Your soul (or spirit in the case of elves) belongs to her. Unfortunately for other race, Lolth does not bestow this gift to non drow. Racism is rampant in her mind. What a b****!
And players are notheworthy to be unfaithful. Even if they are clerics of Lolth...

 

[billd91]

From my standpoint, where the difference in mechanics between PC and NPCs becomes most incongruous is when the same ability is handled differently.

The most egregious example I'm familiar with is the Drow. An 11th-level PC Drow who wants to make poison attacks dealing 3d6 poison damage with their sword has to clear several hurdles: they have to be at least a third level Thief (for the Fast Hands ability to be able to apply poison as a bonus action), they're limited to one poisoned attack per round, and they have to pay 200 gold per dose of Serpent Venom. Even if they do all of the above, the 3d6 poison damage can be halved by a low DC 11 Con save.

You should have seen Drow gear back in 1e! They all carried highly magical weapons and armor as well as cloaks and boots that allowed them to sneak around and fight well above their level equivalent. But if you tried to use the gear after looting them, you could for a little while but they all corroded away, instantly if hit by direct sunlight.

 

[Helldritch]

You should have seen Drow gear back in 1e! They all carried highly magical weapons and armor as well as cloaks and boots that allowed them to sneak around and fight well above their level equivalent. But if you tried to use the gear after looting them, you could for a little while but they all corroded away, instantly if hit by direct sunlight.

Well, the explanation about that was at the time quite logical. This was a feature of the drow that made them quite strong and dangerous opponents. Players had a healthy respect for drows and they were afraid of them, rightly so. The sleep poison of the drow could be game changing. The lowest drow warrior had +1 chain mail, +1 long sword x1 (or x2 if not wearing a shield). They were terrors to behold and they were not often seen. Today... drows of good alignment are everywhere.

 

[billd91]

Well, the explanation about that was at the time quite logical. This was a feature of the drow that made them quite strong and dangerous opponents. Players had a healthy respect for drows and they were afraid of them, rightly so. The sleep poison of the drow could be game changing. The lowest drow warrior had +1 chain mail, +1 long sword x1 (or x2 if not wearing a shield). They were terrors to behold and they were not often seen. Today... drows of good alignment are everywhere.

But still the Drow were packed with stuff that PCs couldn’t get or effectively keep in order to make them tougher in fights against PCs without being matchable by the PCs. The explanation, at the time, was a rationalization for doing so. So, it’s not like the handling of Drow poison in 5e is without precedent.