D&D 5E Concentration spells in 5e

[abirdcall]

Well, I understand what you are saying, but I cast a spell and the DM ruled that it went off and then we rolled initiative so it doesn't matter what the RAW is regarding that.

Well, if you're just houseruling stuff why you are asking what the rules are?

 

[NotAYakk]

Concentration spells are generally much stronger than non-concentration spells for their slot level.

This isn't only a duration thing.

Letting a wizard concentrate on polymorph while shooting off single-round hold persons is a significant power upgrade. One of the costs of either is that a bunch of awesome spells are blocked.

Some classes are better or worse off in this. There are a bunch of good non-concentration damage spells on the sorc/wizard spell list for example.

 

[BluejayJunior]

Well, if you're just houseruling stuff why you are asking what the rules are?

Because he's not asking the rules about surprise. And it may not be RAW, but the way it was played is not a huge leap. It's reasonable for a DM to allow a spell to be cast outside of combat to start the combat. It's just like playing the first round of combat where the enemies are surprised and the other PCs don't act.

Hmm, sucks the 5e team didn't directly think of this.

Okay, how does this sound for a house rule?

When you cast a concentration spell while already engaged in concentrating on a spell you choose which spell to maintain concentration on. The other spell lasts until the beginning of your next turn.

or

You may cast a concentration spell with a 1 round duration instead of a duration of concentration.

Thoughts?

That's a pretty powerful upgrade. And takes out a lot of the risk casting a second concentration spell. Say you cast hold person while concentrating on wall of force and the enemy makes their save. Then you could say that you're still maintaining wall of force and you haven't lost anything (other than the spell slot). Even if you say you have to decided before the save is rolled, and you picked hold person which was then saved, wall of force would still be up for a round, giving you control of the battlefield for the next round until you could recover from it.
Either way, you're increasing the power of spellcasters and reducing the risks associated with casting concentration spells while already concentrating.
I don't see a reason for this change, other than wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Well, if you're just houseruling stuff why you are asking what the rules are?

Well, it's not my campaign now is it? I personally would house rule something as I suggested above. However, I like to keep house rules down as much as possible so I want to see if I was missing something in the RAW first.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Concentration spells are generally much stronger than non-concentration spells for their slot level.

This isn't only a duration thing.

Letting a wizard concentrate on polymorph while shooting off single-round hold persons is a significant power upgrade. One of the costs of either is that a bunch of awesome spells are blocked.

Some classes are better or worse off in this. There are a bunch of good non-concentration damage spells on the sorc/wizard spell list for example.

Okay, I could see that as a point, what if any spell you cast that way allowed advantage to the saving throws or was cast at a higher level?

 

[DM-Rocco]

Because he's not asking the rules about surprise. And it may not be RAW, but the way it was played is not a huge leap. It's reasonable for a DM to allow a spell to be cast outside of combat to start the combat. It's just like playing the first round of combat where the enemies are surprised and the other PCs don't act.


That's a pretty powerful upgrade. And takes out a lot of the risk casting a second concentration spell. Say you cast hold person while concentrating on wall of force and the enemy makes their save. Then you could say that you're still maintaining wall of force and you haven't lost anything (other than the spell slot). Even if you say you have to decided before the save is rolled, and you picked hold person which was then saved, wall of force would still be up for a round, giving you control of the battlefield for the next round until you could recover from it.
Either way, you're increasing the power of spellcasters and reducing the risks associated with casting concentration spells while already concentrating.
I don't see a reason for this change, other than wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

To be clear, the intent wouldn't be able to maintain the Wall of Force, the first spell, for an additional round. It would be to get the effect of a second spell for one round (treated much like a command spell for example) without losing the concentration of the first spell, in this case the suggestion spell.

So someone above mentioned that concentration spells are lower levels because they require concentration, so how about something like this to balance?

You may cast a concentration spell while already engaged in concentrating on a spell. The spell you are casting would be maintained through concentration, the concentration spell you are casting would have it's duration limited to 1 round (beginning of your next turn) and the target(s) would get advantage on any saving throws.

or

You may cast a concentration spell with a 1 round duration instead of a duration of concentration by adding 1 level to the required spell slot.

THoughts?

 

[Esker]

Concentration spells are generally much stronger than non-concentration spells for their slot level.

This isn't only a duration thing.

Letting a wizard concentrate on polymorph while shooting off single-round hold persons is a significant power upgrade. One of the costs of either is that a bunch of awesome spells are blocked.

Some classes are better or worse off in this. There are a bunch of good non-concentration damage spells on the sorc/wizard spell list for example.

This was my initial thought too, and Hold Person was the spell I went to... but the more I think about it, I'm not sure a one round Hold Person inflicting the paralyzed condition on one humanoid for one round is necessarily better than upcasting Command and making two targets of most any category other than undead and very low INT prone for a round and lose their action.

I recognize that wizards don't get Command, and also that letting one spell do multiple things saves you spells known and prepped, and so it's no doubt a power upgrade (less so for a Cleric though)... But I'm not sure the actual effect is overpowered. There might be other examples that are, and I do think the cost is very uneven across spells, but I'm not immediately coming up with effects that feel drastically OP compared to other non-concentration spells of the same level.

 

[Salthorae]

THoughts?

The concentration mechanic is one of the biggest balancing factors for magic in 5e. Any time you mess with that it gets slippery.

In this situation, even if you were able to do that, wouldn't the Wall of Force block line of effect for the Suggestion spell?

I don't think this is a mechanic that should get a houserule like this personally. Even if you were to rule that "you can choose which to concentrate on", that would immediately negate the effect of the second spell if you chose to retain concentration on the first. Basically you have to "start" concentration on the spell to get it to do anything. That's my reading/interpretation anyway.

 

[NotAYakk]

This was my initial thought too, and Hold Person was the spell I went to... but the more I think about it, I'm not sure a one round Hold Person inflicting the paralyzed condition on one humanoid for one round is necessarily better than upcasting Command and making two targets of most any category other than undead and very low INT prone for a round and lose their action.

No, hold person is auto-crit and auto-fail dex/str saves, command is just advantage on melee attacks. (they both kill a turn's worth of actions).

It is much much stronger.

Most concentration spells with a 1 round duration are as good or better than similar level non-concentration spells.

Animate objects: 65 damage at +8 to hit and a pile of possible opportunity attacks. If it lasts until the end of your next turn, 130 damage. Throw in a dissonant whispers and it can hit 195 damage. As a 6th level slot.

Polymorph. Target player is basically immune to damage for 1 round and has their damage output doubled.

Hold Person. (Level-1) targets grant advantage on everything, and melee range attacks are auto-crits, for a turn. Plus they auto-fail str and dex saves.

Maybe I'm cherry picking the best spells, but many are really really are strong spells, even with a 1 round duration. In some cases, the concentration instead of 1 round duration makes the spell a bit worse; the way to deal with a concentration spell is to focus fire the caster.

 

[DM-Rocco]

This was my initial thought too, and Hold Person was the spell I went to... but the more I think about it, I'm not sure a one round Hold Person inflicting the paralyzed condition on one humanoid for one round is necessarily better than upcasting Command and making two targets of most any category other than undead and very low INT prone for a round and lose their action.

I recognize that wizards don't get Command, and also that letting one spell do multiple things saves you spells known and prepped, and so it's no doubt a power upgrade (less so for a Cleric though)... But I'm not sure the actual effect is overpowered. There might be other examples that are, and I do think the cost is very uneven across spells, but I'm not immediately coming up with effects that feel drastically OP compared to other non-concentration spells of the same level.

Even if the overall effect of altering the spell from concentration to 1 round isn't noticeably overpowered I think a restriction of advantage on saves or an increase by one caster level is fair compensation for versatility...you think?