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Confirm or Deny: D&D4e would be going strong had it not been titled D&D

Was the demise of 4e primarily caused by the attachment to the D&D brand?

  • Confirm (It was a solid game but the name and expectations brought it down)

    Votes: 87 57.6%
  • Deny (The fundamental game was flawed which caused its demise)

    Votes: 64 42.4%

Oh, and another possibility is how PA might take a player 'out of the fiction,' due to all the options it enables. I believe there was a WotC article at some point that brought up how a PAer has an additional combat option for each and every point of BAB. "Do I PA for -1, or -2, or -3, or -4, or...?" I'm not sure how many players actually have a problem with this, but gamers who complain about dissociative mechanics seem to be very concerned about overly-involved rules 'taking them out of the fiction.'

In my experience people who are worried about dissociative mechanics are not usually the kinds of people who talk about "the fiction" I can certainly see how these mental calculations might take some out of character, but dissociation is about mechanics not reflecting things your character is managing in the game world. Any mechanic can provoke metagaming that it is out of character. For the purposes of determining whether something is genuinely dissociative what counts is whether the mechanic is tied to the action in the setting. Bennies for example would be dissociative because they don't represent anything the character actually has. The player's choice to deploy a bennie has no connection to what the character is doing (I happen to like savage worlds, and the existence of bennies isn't enough to bother me about the system). If bennies were reframed as effort, then it wouldn't be dissociated because then the mechanic lines up with your character actually putting more effort into the moment. All games have some dissociated mechanics, the question is how much can folks tolerate. For me it becomes an issue when I feel like the designers have just given themselves a green light to disregard the connection to the mechanics and the action; where the desire for a fun mechanic, simplicity or balance (or something similar) overrides concerns about what that actually means for the character. If I don't get that sense (but rather have the sense that they were willing to hand wave in a few key instances) then it doesn't usually trouble me. So it is when it feels systemic that I have an issue.
 

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I'm glad that the conversation is civilized. I note your points but note that I'm not defending 3rd edition. In certain aspects, was an improve from AD&D (better maths, I do like feats as a customization option, etc.) but it came with his own problems. As I said, I tolerate it, and in some aspects I like it, but, while I begin to play when 3rd edition was beginning (2001, aprox.), I quickly pass to AD&D.

To me, it has his flaws but ultimately they were correctible and not so important at all compared to the big hindrances it brought (rules mastery, power creeping, etc). Power problems in AD&D came at serious levels, levels that, by the slow pace of experience advancement, almost never occur in my tables. Oh, yes, a level 5 mage was a real mess in a table, but when a wizard climbed to level 5, the rogue was already in level 9, so it does not bother as much*. I'm not saying that AD&D has not his own problems, and many of them were corrected in further editions.

That said, the difference between a skillfull munchkin player and a more light approached one conects with dissociated mechanics: you have to have a certain degree of rules mastery to be an average player. The average player is more munchkinesque in 4th edition. An average 3rd edition player (and I've played with many non experienced ones) certainly is not near as effective as a munckin one, because the powergamers were scarcer as it tends to be a game were rules and options were monstruously high. The vast majority of average players doesn't pose such a threat in terms of breakiness of the game, and you can play intuitively, without reading a single book, and be useful.

I don't know if it is the case outside my country, were D&D books are expensive and mostly in a secondary language (English is not as universal as you may think, no offense intended), but here most players don't know most rules. I'm a nerd, and I've been translating AD&D manuals since I had 16, but even I don't read as much further than the 3.5 Player's Handbook until very recent times, and I've played in three tables. I certainly don't remember all feats, caveats or exploits, and I've made myself very effective in campaigns simply by asking "I'll try to do X. Can I do this?". Mostly, I've used basic rules (my 3rd ed character was a crossbowman soldier, and shooting at long range, covering behind a heavy infantry guy, trying to capture or not to kill avery foe, sneak, sharpshooting, flanking, etc). In fourth edition, (I tried it in a few conventions) I had to know the warrior spells, and it was mind-boggling. I had to read the core books twice. I never could convince my wife to even try it (she played RPGs because of me, not because she is a fan, so she is very light hearted. And certainly she don't want to do homework to play).

What I'm trying to say is that to become an average 4th edition requires a level of metagaming mastery not present in prior editions, hence the dissociated dynamics as the core. Yes, in third edition, dudes that made their homework are table-breakers, and more of a problem than 4th, but they don't constitute the core of many tables. You can think yourself in that place and say something as "I make a descending attack with all my strenght, trying to make as much damage as I could", and the master say "throw 1d20", and internaly or externaly he decides which rule to apply, basic attack being the most common option, but also Power Attack, or grapple, or whatever it adjust more to your intentions. See? not metagaming skill needed: you actualy behave like you think your character will do.

*Think that defeating 6 (50 xp) goblins in 5th edition makes you pass a level. In AD&D, a goblin is worth 15xp, and you advance as a wizard at 2500 xp. "Farming" monsters was not an option. And the easiest way to adance? Treasure, and campaign experience. Magic treasure give experience. Learn spells gives experience. Solving problems give experience. Sometimes, this was through combat, sometimes this was with cleverness.
 

I can't answer this poll, because I don't believe either answer is true. OP's poll makes a statement, then ask us to either agree or disagree, which was fine. The poll became flawed as soon as OP appended leading and loaded statements to the poll options; it's the appended statements that I reject.

4E was a solid game. 4E was D&D because it had the brand name, and the brand name is an important factor in the success it did have. 4E rejected many features of D&D editions that had come before it, and this alienated a lot of players. These true things I can say about 4E.
 

Its interesting how the same game we have all played can have such radically different results in us.

For many of the reasons listed above where someone found 4e dissociative, I found dynamic and the opposite of dissociative. 4e allowed me to visualize and creatively imagine what was going on in the action better than the majority of all RPGs, not just other editions of D&D.

I also feel 4e requires the least amount of system mastery IF you are a player. It is actually a very simple system.

But that's me. :)
 

So if I say that I think all editions prior to 3rd edition were crap games and if you liked those previous editions you'd actually take my opinion over the game a bit personally, even though I didn't say anything about you at all? Just a hypothetical question I guess...

When people take stuff like that personally I really don't get it. If a person doesn't like a particular game system doesn't mean their dislike of that game has anything to do with the people who actually play the game one bit... unless those people are saying things about the people who play the game then that's a different story.

I think THAC0 is the worst, banal, crap game mechanism ever invented in the era of gaming over the last century. That's simply how I feel about it. I also know that a lot of people like it, and I am glad that they enjoy those games that use that mechanism, and me saying how much I hate that mechanism doesn't mean I think the people who play it are "Insert negative statement here." In fact, I am in awe of those people because they can understand and grasp something that I am simply unable to understand and I wish I could. I think it's awesome that there are people who do get it and can grok it and continue to play games with it.

Pre 3E D&D did have a lot of crap mechanics but the game was and still is fun. Also a lot of those crap mechanics can be dumped. Last time we played 2E we used BAB.

I don't think 4E would be going strong if it lacked the D&D name. The only reason I think it did as well as it did was because of the D&D name. I don't think 13Age is doing that well these days for example.

One key difference with older D&D/OSR D&D is a lto of people now days have not played it as 3E was the last great intake of new D&D players. OSR D&D is also immune to criticisms of it not being D&D. As an OSR fan there is plenty wrong with it for example the layout of 1E or the art of early 1E product and even some of the mechanics THAC0 being a case in point. If someone points out these flaws I am likely to agree with them not deny their opionion or tell them they are not playing the game right which seems a common defence a few years ago on the interwebs.

The biggest change to the game that I think is positive is 3Es use of ascending ACs as even on places like Dragonsfoot you will not get shot for dumping THAC0. Hell my prime recruit for new OSR players is 3E and Pathfinder players and using ascending ACs is the easiest thing to houserule into AD&D/BECMI and makes getting new blood easier as well. I lost my last AD&D holdout player last year every new OSR player I game with is not a traditional grognard.
 
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There is so much vitriol in Erechel's post it's not worth responding in detail. But a few highlights:

It's a game perfectly designed for munchkins, whom care for no other than reduce foes to 0 hp to "level up". It has a explicit metagaming factor so crucial that make thinking outside the box clearly NOT an option. You have three dump stats. Why bother in Charisma or Intelligence if you are a fighter? Your stats MUST be Constitution, Strenght, and maybe Wisdom or Dexterity (you chose whom, the other to the trash can). If you chose Charisma as your second stat, you are clearly playing wrong.
4e is the first edition of D&D to fully support the quintessential STR/CHA archetype (the Tolkien-esque battle captain) without having to be an overtly religious, magical figure: the warlord.

Even within the fighter class you are thinking too narrowly about the range of feasible builds. The 29th level fighter PC in my game has only one stat above 20 - Strength - and is a fully viable PC (probably the second-most powerful in the party, after the sorcerer whose static damage adds are +50 and whose at-will attack a burst 2).

thinking outside the box clearly NOT an option
I'm not sure what you mean by "thinking outside the box" - casting Create Water inside a creature's lungs to drown him/her with a 1st level spell? - but I've found that 4e's robust resolution system supports a much wider variety of player choices and ingame events than other versions of D&D that I've played. Here are some links.

If you play in a system which breaks as soon as the players try to push hard to have their PCs achieve things, I'm sorry to hear that. I find it's a virtue of 4e that it doesn't break - it provides support.

At 9th level, you cannot fight anymore with orcs
Yet the PCs in my game fought with hobgoblins at Paragon tier. (Twice!).

it would be a mistake to say that you cannot play a tactical battle without calling distance "squares" (as OD&D). My old players could manage to play AD&D very tactical, but somewhat much faster than 4th.
In Gygax's AD&D there was no mention of squares - rather, inches were the scale unit of choice!

Dissociated mechanics[/B]: Linked to the above, the dissociated mechanics are idiotic. No, maybe not idiotic, but in the better scenario, they are the lesser evil (hp, for example). There are tons of articles explaining this (Justin Alexander is one of those).
You may have missed the rebuttal of Justin Alexander's rant at post 107 upthread.
 

I imagine that if Collins, Heisoo, and co formed a 3PP and used the OGL to make 4e as a new game, devoid of all the baggage D&D as a brand brings, it would had succeeded far better than it did carrying the D&D logo.
I find this hard to believe. Do you really think that 13th Age, which is more-or-less an instance of what you describe, has sold as many books as 4e did? And that's not even touching on the profits from DDI.
 

I don't get that. You decide to put more focus into swinging really hard then you do aiming. Why is that ridiculous? Or dissociated from what the character might actually attempt? What am I missing?
I find PA completely "dissociated" (ie metagame) and a ridiculous mechanic (likewise its 5e descendants in GWM/SS).

It is entirely an artefact of D&D's combat resolution system, which divorces the to hit roll - which already represents the character doing his/her best to wear down his/her opponent - from the damage roll.

If the player is bad at maths, then a feat which is meant to model "hit harder" can end up meaning that the character hits more feebly.

And a feat which is meant to model a wild barbarian swinging hard is in fact the most intellectually intensive part of the game (in virtue of the maths required) to use properly.

In my view it's an epic fail at every level. Just work out what the desired damage bonus should be (I think in 5e it's around +2) and have the feat give a static mod.
 

In what way is the math of power attack hard? I don't get that either. o.O

In my view it's an epic fail at every level. Just work out what the desired damage bonus should be (I think in 5e it's around +2) and have the feat give a static mod.

That's a feat called Weapon Focus. :)
 
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Hmmm...thread was mildly interesting at its outset when the premise was focused away from "why 4e sucks...GO!" I take a look a few weeks later and, shockingly, we're partying like its 2009!
 

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