confused about flat-footed

[Dr. Zoom]

the situation came up in a gaming session where the evil cleric was stunned during the first round and before the clerics first action.
since the cleric was denied any actions in the first round there was an - disagreement - about the cleric still being flat-footed.

Regardless, the cleric would still be denied his dex bonus to AC due to the stunning effect. After the stun wears off, I would consider the cleric flat-footed until he acted, since he has not taken an action yet.

As for those who Delay, the PH lists this as "no action." This is somewhat vague in the definitions. I could see treating it both ways. IMO, the delaying character is now alert enough to react fully to the battle, but chooses not to act yet. I don't think that character is flat-footed, even though he delayed his action.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: confused about flat-footed

Regardless, the cleric would still be denied his dex bonus to AC due to the stunning effect. After the stun wears off, I would consider the cleric flat-footed until he acted, since he has not taken an action yet.

But his first turn in the initiative cycle has come, which is the definition used in both places in the PHB that reference when the flat-footed condition ends.

-Hyp.

 

[Drawmack]

I have a player in my RttToEE game that is rather indecisive (she just doesn't get to play much and like to take her cues from how the rest of the party reacts). She often "Delays" when her first initiative comes up. Should she be considered "Flat Footed" until she stops delaying?

By reading the text that Hypersmurf italicized it looks like she shouldn't (and I have not been treating her as such) but I'm just seeking clarification.

Delaying is an action, she takes the action of waiting. Remember that initiative is a dexterity check. The idea is that until your turn in the initiative order comes up you are completely and totally unable to react. The round lasts six seconds and different character begin to react at different times in that 6 second span. So once you delay you equivocally become aware of your surroundings and are no longer flat-footed.

 

[Antikinesis]

Re: Re: confused about flat-footed

Regardless, the cleric would still be denied his dex bonus to AC due to the stunning effect. After the stun wears off, I would consider the cleric flat-footed until he acted, since he has not taken an action yet.

I think you're misunderstanding the definition of flat-footed, good Doctor. Have a look at the definition posted by Hypersmurf. When your initiative comes up for the first time, you're no longer flat-footed, even if you're not able to act on your first initiative. You might still be denied your dex bonus for other reasons (e.g., stunned), but you're not flat-footed.

-AK

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Re: Re: Re: confused about flat-footed

I think you're misunderstanding the definition of flat-footed, good Doctor.

Quite possible.

Have a look at the definition posted by Hypersmurf. When your initiative comes up for the first time, you're no longer flat-footed...

I am well versed in the definitions themselves.

...even if you're not able to act on your first initiative.

This is the question at hand. Ordinarily, your initiative comes up, you act, and you are no longer flat-footed. What if you are unable to act during this first round? Does the phrase "first turn in the initiative cycle" assume they are able to act or does it mean until they actually do act? In this case, the cleric is stunned while he is still flat-footed. When the stun wears off, he has not acted yet. Has he taken his first turn in the initiative cycle yet?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Let's say we have Evil Spellcaster, his pet fighter Evil Henchman, and PC Cleric, in that initiative order.

In the surprise round, Evil Spellcaster Stuns PC Cleric for one round. PC Cleric is now Stunned until Evil Spellcaster's initative in round 1.

Evil Henchman, in the surprise round, moves forward to close with PC Cleric.

PC Cleric, in the surprise round, is Stunned - he can take no action. But Delay, as has been pointed out, is Not An Action. PC Cleric Delays.

In round 1, Evil Spellcaster gloats about how Evil Henchman is about to hack PC Cleric into little pieces. But wait! PC Cleric is no longer Stunned, and he chooses to take his Delayed surprise round now, casting Destruction and incinerating poor Evil Henchman.

-----

Anyway, in this case - Delaying might not be an action, but it's something you can only declare on your turn in the initiative cycle. Since he Delayed, PC Cleric must have had a turn, so if Evil Spellcaster had fired a crossbow instead of gloating, PC Cleric would no longer be flat-footed.

-Hyp.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

When you delay, you must still take your action later in that same round. So if a stunned character is able to Delay, which I am unsure is even possible, they will still not be able to act that same round. The Ready action is the one that carries over to your next action, but that requires a standard action.

 

[Antikinesis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: confused about flat-footed

This is the question at hand. Ordinarily, your initiative comes up, you act, and you are no longer flat-footed. What if you are unable to act during this first round? Does the phrase "first turn in the initiative cycle" assume they are able to act or does it mean until they actually do act? In this case, the cleric is stunned while he is still flat-footed. When the stun wears off, he has not acted yet. Has he taken his first turn in the initiative cycle yet?

Okay, I see where you're coming from. It looks like you consider a "turn" to be roughly analogous to an "action". Not an unreasonable interpretation, I suppose.

However, I can't agree that your interpretation is what was intended by the descriptions in the PHB. The glossary definition makes no mention of the word "action", and instead uses the word "turn". If "action" is what was intended, I would expect them to have used the word "action", instead of "turn in the initiative cycle". If the initiative turn is what was intended, then the chosen terms in the definition are a perfect fit.

In the description on p120, the authors apparently decided that "before you have had a chance to act" wasn't precise enough, and parenthetically elaborated with a specific description, "before your first regular turn in the initiative order". Once again, if this was intended to be based on the player's first action, and not first initiative, it is strange that they would have chosen the word "turn".

I'll grant that this is subjective, and that the core books are woefully imprecise on several topics, but IMO, the description of "flat-footed" pretty clearly favors the initiative (versus action) interpretation.

IMC, if characters are aware of their surroundings (e.g., still conscious) when their initiative comes up, they're no longer flat-footed.

-AK

 

[Berk]

However, I can't agree that your interpretation is what was intended by the descriptions in the PHB. The glossary definition makes no mention of the word "action", and instead uses the word "turn". If "action" is what was intended, I would expect them to have used the word "action", instead of "turn in the initiative cycle". If the initiative turn is what was intended, then the chosen terms in the definition are a perfect fit.

And we all know how good they were on picking proper words to describe things and such. =op

 

[Antikinesis]

And we all know how good they were on picking proper words to describe things and such. =op

MUST... NOT... FLAME...
MUST... CONTROL... IMPULSES...
MERCY... IS... GOOD...
MUST... NOT... FLAME...

Argh!

-AK