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Consensus about two-weapon fighting?

Fenris-77

Explorer
Those examples are just as background dependent though, so I'm not sure how they're different, or better. Perhaps suggest an alternative rather than just giving me your opinion about why it wouldn't work? My main point there was that there are ways to make social interaction not wholly dependent on CHA, and that particular example fits that idea for a lot of generic fighter builds and whatnot, and that fits the stated goal of broadening the fighter class to include other stuff. If you;ve got other ideas, lay them on us.
 
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Gladius Legis

Explorer
If all you compare is one fighter's attack action vs another fighter's attack action, you have eliminated like 99.99999% of the factors in play in a combat and so any conclusions judgements have practically no value in terms of an assessment over which class does more damage?

You make this too easy when your last paragraph is a perfect proof of my point about assumptions and "non-quantifiable factors" and the flaws of claims to objectivity of white room warrior fu.

If you want to look at comparing how much damage beyond just the fighter attack action, say to rogue or pally and disadvantages etc then you run into factors like say how precision attack applies after the die/dice are rolled, how disadvantage doesnt just make the roll worst for the rogue but also cancels any chance at sneak damage even if they hit, etc.

"Your "non-quantifiable factors" really aren't relevant."

QED.

Objectively speaking, that is.
I wasn't comparing one Fighter to another Fighter. You are arguing in bad faith, to the point you're even making any sense at all.
 

Zardnaar

Adventurer
I think he's right about divine smite and action surge. It's just he's conceniently excluding superiority dice as well...
Any Paladin gets smite, only one fighter gets superiority dice and is front loaded/ best fighter to around level 15.
 
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Gladius Legis

Explorer
I think he's right about divine smite and action surge. It's just he's conceniently excluding superiority dice as well...
I mean, if all he's doing with Action Surge is being lazy and merely doubling his base DPR, then maybe. That's just never what happens on an Action Surge turn in all my experiences.
 

dnd4vr

Adventurer
That is absolutely false.
Wrong, it is pretty simple math: (at 20th-level, assuming Improved Divine Smite still caps smites at 5d8, some tables play it increases it to 6d8, but whatever...)

4 smites for 3d8 = 4 x 13.5 avg = 54
3 smites for 4d8 = 3 x 18 avg = 54
8 (3 + 3 + 2) smites for 5d8 = 8 x 22.5 avg = 180

54 + 54 + 180 = 288 hp of damage on average. Oh, and MOST importantly, this is added AFTER the hit so it is guaranteed damage and NOT affected by the 60% hit probability like Sneak Attack.

Even with 6 action surges at 20th-level, with an average damage of 27.6 hp each (from the table earlier), the total boost the Fighter gets is 165.6.

288 - 165.6 = 122.4. Looks to be more than 100 to me. :)

Now, perhaps you meant "That is absolutely false." to my stating at most 3 action surges? If so, my apologies, you are absolutely correct I was mistaken since the greatest number of action surges a character can get is in fact 6 (which was used in my above calculation).

I think he's right about divine smite and action surge. It's just he's conceniently excluding superiority dice as well...
Every Paladin gets divine smite regardless of archetype, not every Fighter get's superiority dice.

If you are using it for Lunging attack, and thus adding the dice as damage, you get 18 x 6.5 = 117. But when you multiply that by the 0.6 hit probability, it is 70.2. A nice boost, but not enough to make up the difference.

I recall you mentioned Precision Attack before, in which case we'll assume it will turn 18 "misses" into hits, thus increasing damage from 6.9 expected to the full 11.5, the difference being 4.6 per use. Then you have 4.6 x 18 = 82.8, better than Lunging attack. However, if you want to argue all the damage should be added instead of simply the difference, you get a huge boost of 207, but I don't think the logic is right in that. I could be wrong, it is early and wrapping my head around it before coffee isn't probably the best idea. LOL

I mean, if all he's doing with Action Surge is being lazy and merely doubling his base DPR, then maybe. That's just never what happens on an Action Surge turn in all my experiences.
LOL really? Then what does happen? Action surge allows a full attack action with all the extra attacks included, so at 20th-level it allows 8 attacks. If you're playing with Action Surge differently, maybe you should tell the rest of us how. ;)
 
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Gladius Legis

Explorer
Wrong, it is pretty simple math: (at 20th-level, assuming Improved Divine Smite still caps smites at 5d8, some tables play it increases it to 6d8, but whatever...)

4 smites for 3d8 = 4 x 13.5 avg = 54
3 smites for 4d8 = 3 x 18 avg = 54
8 (3 + 3 + 2) smites for 5d8 = 8 x 22.5 avg = 180

54 + 54 + 180 = 288 hp of damage on average. Oh, and MOST importantly, this is added AFTER the hit so it is guaranteed damage and NOT affected by the 60% hit probability like Sneak Attack.

Even with 6 action surges at 20th-level, with an average damage of 27.6 hp each (from the table earlier), the total boost the Fighter gets is 165.6.

288 - 165.6 = 122.4. Looks to be more than 100 to me. :)

Now, perhaps you meant "That is absolutely false." to my stating at most 3 action surges? If so, my apologies, you are absolutely correct I was mistaken since the greatest number of action surges a character can get is in fact 6 (which was used in my above calculation).
Improved Divine Smite does NOT add 1d8 to the spell slot you are using for the Smite. It just adds to your regular weapon hits. This was clarified in the most recent errata. Do try to keep up.

So at 20th level, it's really 4*9 + 3*13.5 + 3*18 + 5*22.5 = 243

243. Not nearly what you were trying to sell with your inaccurate depiction of what IDS does.

The difference between Smite total and base-level Action Surge, before Superiority Dice, is therefore 77.4.

Every Paladin gets divine smite regardless of archetype, not every Fighter get's superiority dice.

It comes close, though. Assuming you are using it for Lunging attack anyway, and thus adding the dice as damage, you get 18 x 6.5 = 117. So, very close to making up the 122.4 difference Divine Smite has over Action Surge.
After correcting your misunderstanding of IDS, the Fighter comes out ahead by roughly 30 points.

And that's not even factoring in the Fighter's base DPR (27.6) being quite a bit more than the Paladin's (19.2).

LOL really? Then what does happen? Action surge allows a full attack action with all the extra attacks included, so at 20th-level it allows 8 attacks. If you're playing with Action Surge differently, maybe you should tell the rest of us how. ;)
Action Surge turns are usually when you do things like use Trip Attack on your first hit to get advantage on your other attacks (hence increasing damage). It's also when you're most likely to use Precision Attack on narrow misses. Or pile on Superiority Dice on all your hits.

It's called frontloading damage all into one round. Fighters do that better than anyone.
 
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dnd4vr

Adventurer
Improved Divine Smite does NOT add 1d8 to the spell slot you are using for the Smite. It just adds to your regular weapon hits. This was clarified in the most recent errata. Do try to keep up.
Improved Divine Smite
By 11th level, you are so suffused with righteous might that all your melee weapon strikes carry divine power with them. Whenever you hit a creature with a melee weapon, the creature takes an extra 1d8 radiant damage. (DELETED: If you also use your Divine Smite with an attack, you add this damage to the extra damage of your Divine Smite.)

Removing the italicized sentence in no way implies you don't combine DS with IDS (if that is your thought). If the two were meant to be non-complementary, the errata would have stated so, but then that nearly defeats the purpose of IDS in most games IMO since many tables have so few combats between rests and at 11th-level or higher Paladins routinely add DS to their attacks. That doesn't mean they don't get to also add IDS since it applies to every hit.

You realize this actually improves Paladins? Yes, it adds to your regular weapon attacks, that was always understood, but with the errata it means you can add the full 5d8's for Divine Strike even more often since IDS isn't imposing the cap prematurely. I suppose that is why some tables do use the full 6d8 (5d8 + 1d8 IDS).

Now, what is REALLY happening is because of the IDS, you get the extra d8 all the time. I'm not factoring that in at all, just in the instances when DS is used. Strictly speaking, if you want to argue that I shouldn't be, then certainly I will agree that DS alone is only a 77.4 point increase, not over 100. However, I will continue to contend that since at 20th-level, IDS is always in use, it adds even more, bringing it to over 100 when DS is used. Perhaps at this point it is simply a matter of perspective.

Either way, DS ends up beating the pants off of action surge in raw damage potential between long rests: DS 243 vs. AS 165.6, even without IDS factored in.

Action Surge turns are usually when you do things like use Trip Attack on your first hit to get advantage on your other attacks (hence increasing damage). It's also when you're most likely to use Precision Attack on narrow misses. Or pile on Superiority Dice on all your hits.

It's called frontloading damage all into one round. Fighters do that better than anyone.
I am not arguing the benefits of Action Surge for frontloading, or denying Fighters can do that better. Of course, if the Paladin hits with both attacks, his average DS frontloading is actually better than a Fighter at 20th-level, but I digress. I don't know what you mean by "pile on Superiority Dice on all your hits." since I'm not aware of any Battlemaster ability that allows you to add your dice as damage after the hit has been determined. Admittedly, I don't play Battlemasters really so I could easily be missing some maneuver that does allow this.

At any rate, you are still implying a Battlemaster build, which is only one archetype of Fighter. By default, the assumed standard archetype is actually Champion in the OGL. And I am not including any of the features Paladin archetypes would add so I wouldn't concern myself with what Battlemaster adds.

What you should be arguing, really, is that due to the additional attack extra attack provides, a 20th-level Fighter will outstrip a 20th-level Paladin (even with IDS) by 8.4 hp of damage per round. So, once AS is gone and DS have been used up, the Fighter will consistently deal out more damage than the Paladin. In less than 10 rounds after DS is gone, the Fighter's cumulative damage between long rests exceeds the Paladin's.

So, who is better at dealing damage really comes down to how many rounds of combat you have between long rests (allowing for two short rest, of course). With quick combats allowing short rests in between, a Fighter will prevail. In moderate combats without short rests or less often, the Paladin with DS is superior, and in several combats (with or without short rests really), the Fighter eventually takes over again.

This is why I am not a fan of white room analysis, too much depends on the way a table plays and when and how quickly features such as AS and DS can be used. Finally, we have digressed from the OP about TWF fighting long enough. If you feel compelled to continue the discussion, maybe a new thread?
 
Yeah. Allow the primary weapon to be any one handed melee weapon and the off hand to require the light property. The fact you can't use rapier/dagger or longsword/shortsword is ridiculous.
 

Gladius Legis

Explorer
Yeah. Allow the primary weapon to be any one handed melee weapon and the off hand to require the light property. The fact you can't use rapier/dagger or longsword/shortsword is ridiculous.
By far my biggest pet peeve about 5e dual wielding. And one of my big pet peeves in general in 5e.
 

FrogReaver

Adventurer
Improved Divine Smite
By 11th level, you are so suffused with righteous might that all your melee weapon strikes carry divine power with them. Whenever you hit a creature with a melee weapon, the creature takes an extra 1d8 radiant damage. (DELETED: If you also use your Divine Smite with an attack, you add this damage to the extra damage of your Divine Smite.)

Removing the italicized sentence in no way implies you don't combine DS with IDS (if that is your thought). If the two were meant to be non-complementary, the errata would have stated so, but then that nearly defeats the purpose of IDS in most games IMO since many tables have so few combats between rests and at 11th-level or higher Paladins routinely add DS to their attacks. That doesn't mean they don't get to also add IDS since it applies to every hit.
Prepare for thy beatdown!

You realize this actually improves Paladins? Yes, it adds to your regular weapon attacks, that was always understood, but with the errata it means you can add the full 5d8's for Divine Strike even more often since IDS isn't imposing the cap prematurely. I suppose that is why some tables do use the full 6d8 (5d8 + 1d8 IDS).
Prepare to be smitten!

Now, what is REALLY happening is because of the IDS, you get the extra d8 all the time. I'm not factoring that in at all, just in the instances when DS is used. Strictly speaking, if you want to argue that I shouldn't be, then certainly I will agree that DS alone is only a 77.4 point increase, not over 100. However, I will continue to contend that since at 20th-level, IDS is always in use, it adds even more, bringing it to over 100 when DS is used. Perhaps at this point it is simply a matter of perspective.
Prepare for a can of whoop@ss!

Either way, DS ends up beating the pants off of action surge in raw damage potential between long rests: DS 243 vs. AS 165.6, even without IDS factored in.
Technically correct but doesn't prove your overall point.... (I'm out of catch phrases)

I am not arguing the benefits of Action Surge for frontloading, or denying Fighters can do that better. Of course, if the Paladin hits with both attacks, his average DS frontloading is actually better than a Fighter at 20th-level, but I digress. I don't know what you mean by "pile on Superiority Dice on all your hits." since I'm not aware of any Battlemaster ability that allows you to add your dice as damage after the hit has been determined. Admittedly, I don't play Battlemasters really so I could easily be missing some maneuver that does allow this.
If this were D&D you would have just rolled your 4th 1 in 5 attempts.

At any rate, you are still implying a Battlemaster build, which is only one archetype of Fighter. By default, the assumed standard archetype is actually Champion in the OGL. And I am not including any of the features Paladin archetypes would add so I wouldn't concern myself with what Battlemaster adds.
Which is why your comparison is flawed from the start. The subclasses of some classes add more than the subclasses of other classes.

What you should be arguing, really, is that due to the additional attack extra attack provides, a 20th-level Fighter will outstrip a 20th-level Paladin (even with IDS) by 8.4 hp of damage per round. So, once AS is gone and DS have been used up, the Fighter will consistently deal out more damage than the Paladin. In less than 10 rounds after DS is gone, the Fighter's cumulative damage between long rests exceeds the Paladin's.
Thank the Gods! You just rolled a 20!

So, who is better at dealing damage really comes down to how many rounds of combat you have between long rests (allowing for two short rest, of course). With quick combats allowing short rests in between, a Fighter will prevail. In moderate combats without short rests or less often, the Paladin with DS is superior, and in several combats (with or without short rests really), the Fighter eventually takes over again.
I also have no idea why you are looking at 20th level as opposed to 5th, 7th or 11th level.

This is why I am not a fan of white room analysis, too much depends on the way a table plays and when and how quickly features such as AS and DS can be used. Finally, we have digressed from the OP about TWF fighting long enough. If you feel compelled to continue the discussion, maybe a new thread?
It's trivially easy to make an analysis for any given case. Generalizing to all games everywhere is where in accuracys spring up. Still the generalization provided is right more times than it is wrong, unlike the weatherman so it should be able to keep it's day job ;)
 

Xeviat

Explorer
View attachment 107466
*Assuming 3x Action Surges per day
And this is without doing something like, say, looking at an Eldritch Knight's spell slots as "virtual smites" (I really think the EK should have had an arcane strike ability or something), or a Battlemaster's superiority dice for simple raw damage. Yeah, then we can look at what the paladin subclasses do, but they don't do as much.
 

FrogReaver

Adventurer
And this is without doing something like, say, looking at an Eldritch Knight's spell slots as "virtual smites" (I really think the EK should have had an arcane strike ability or something), or a Battlemaster's superiority dice for simple raw damage. Yeah, then we can look at what the paladin subclasses do, but they don't do as much.
He does now, it's called shadowblade ;)

Also speaking of EK's, did you know that burning hands Action Surge burning hands does really good AOE damage. Yes I know it's a once per day combo for the low level EK, but it's still impressive! If you decide to use level 2 slots for burning hands you are doing as much as a fireball in terms of damage.

IMO the EK's magical ability is a bit underrated. The biggest downside to him is he can't use damage spells many times per day. But he's still a fighter in the other combats. It should be rare that you need really good aoe more than a few fights per day anyways.
 
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dnd4vr

Adventurer
Prepare for thy beatdown!

Prepare to be smitten!

Prepare for a can of whoop@ss!

Technically correct but doesn't prove your overall point.... (I'm out of catch phrases)

If this were D&D you would have just rolled your 4th 1 in 5 attempts.

Which is why your comparison is flawed from the start. The subclasses of some classes add more than the subclasses of other classes.

Thank the Gods! You just rolled a 20!

I also have no idea why you are looking at 20th level as opposed to 5th, 7th or 11th level.

It's trivially easy to make an analysis for any given case. Generalizing to all games everywhere is where in accuracys spring up. Still the generalization provided is right more times than it is wrong, unlike the weatherman so it should be able to keep it's day job ;)
It what universe was all this necessary? Thanks for proving what an abusive person you can be. At one point I valued your input, and I know you won't care, being the type of person you obviously are, but I no longer do.

Oh, and your further analysis continues to use Battle Master to exceed what all Paladins can do without bring an archetype into the mix. Talking about particular archetypes and builds defeats the purpose of general analysis, which was the original point of the divergence from the OP. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you still refuse to understand that concept.
 

FrogReaver

Adventurer
It what universe was all this necessary? Thanks for proving what an abusive person you can be. At one point I valued your input, and I know you won't care, being the type of person you obviously are, but I no longer do.

Oh, and your further analysis continues to use Battle Master to exceed what all Paladins can do without bring an archetype into the mix. Talking about particular archetypes and builds defeats the purpose of general analysis, which was the original point of the divergence from the OP. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you still refuse to understand that concept.
It was done in humor. Possibly at your expense and for that I do apologize for.

That said, there was just so many basic facts wrong about how certain abilities mechanically work in the post I was quoting that I didn't see the need to nitpick them to death. I honestly figured gladius would have chimed in on the specifics by now.

By the way, my chart shows exactly what you said. A fighter with just action surge doesn't outdo a paladin with divine smites. It also shows the big difference "part" of the fighter subclass makes. I didn't consider any prone or precision attack or other effects of the dice.

By the way, the best a paladin subclass gets for damage by level 11 is going to be the bonus action advantage for 1 enemy once per short rest. Now I don't know exactly how to compare the superiority dice effects to that, but with 5 dice per short rest I'm willing to say the overall effect is fairly similar.

But really at this point we are talking of a swing of at most about 2.5 effective DPR per day one way or the other. In terms of daily damage output, both classes in whatever method you want to look at them are super competitive.

In terms of NOVA, the paladin is better on the base class, but once subclasses are considered the fighter is better at first turn NOVA.

I value first turn Nova a lot, but there is also something reassuring about knowing the paladin has the resources to get most any enemy he wants dead to be dead. The fighter sometimes starts that job and fails to finish up.
 

dnd4vr

Adventurer
It was done in humor. Possibly at your expense and for that I do apologize for.

That said, there was just so many basic facts wrong about how certain abilities mechanically work in the post I was quoting that I didn't see the need to nitpick them to death. I honestly figured gladius would have chimed in on the specifics by now.

By the way, my chart shows exactly what you said. A fighter with just action surge doesn't outdo a paladin with divine smites. It also shows the big difference "part" of the fighter subclass makes. I didn't consider any prone or precision attack or other effects of the dice.

By the way, the best a paladin subclass gets for damage by level 11 is going to be the bonus action advantage for 1 enemy once per short rest. Now I don't know exactly how to compare the superiority dice effects to that, but with 5 dice per short rest I'm willing to say the overall effect is fairly similar.

But really at this point we are talking of a swing of at most about 2.5 effective DPR per day one way or the other. In terms of daily damage output, both classes in whatever method you want to look at them are super competitive.

In terms of NOVA, the paladin is better on the base class, but once subclasses are considered the fighter is better at first turn NOVA.

I value first turn Nova a lot, but there is also something reassuring about knowing the paladin has the resources to get most any enemy he wants dead to be dead. The fighter sometimes starts that job and fails to finish up.
I know it was meant to be humorous and to be honest it was to a point, but then it went beyond humor and into offense. Of course I accept your apology and will admit my own reaction could easily have been influenced by reading it after an 11-hour day at work. :) I'm glad to see my original take on you was the accurate one, and I apologize if anything I said upset you as well.

I agree with much of your overall analysis once archetypes are brought into the picture, but that (obviously) was never what I was looking at because different builds have different strengths, etc. and once you consider all the other abilities a Paladin has, including one of the best novas in the game, they remain IMO overall superior to the fighter class, regardless of archetype. In terms of Vow of Enmity, 30 rounds a day in total with advantage to hit your target at least equals the superiority dice of the Battle Master, especially when you consider that at higher levels it allow the Paladin to use his reaction to make an additional attack. Of course, that path is balanced in the Conquest has the better capstone ability.

I've seen plenty of Paladin-only characters, but the Fighter class has always been a dip for multiclasses IME. I am certain you have witnessed or played several Battle Masters. For what it is worth, no one I have ever played with has ever taken that archetype. Perhaps that is why I can't appreciate its potential?
 

Flamestrike

Explorer
Yeah. Allow the primary weapon to be any one handed melee weapon and the off hand to require the light property. The fact you can't use rapier/dagger or longsword/shortsword is ridiculous.
Reason being is

Greatsword = 1 attack at 2d6+Stat
Longsword + Shortsword = 2 attacks at 1d8+ Stat/ 1d6

TWF deals greater DPR than the Greatsword guy. 2 attacks instead of one, and combined damage of 1d8+1d6+stat.

'Light weapon required in the offhand only' might work as default, but only if you imposed disadvantage on the off hand weapon attack, unless the primary weapon is also light.

I personally go with:

Default:
When you fight with 2 weapons, you must use a light weapon in your off-hand.
You have disadvantage on your off-hand attack, unless your main-hand attack was also made with a light weapon.
Your offhand attack does not get +Stat to damage

Two Weapon Fighting style:
You ignore the disadvantage caused on off-hand attacks due to attacking with a non-light weapon in your main hand.
You get +Stat to damage with your off hand attacks.

Dual wielder (Feat):
You treat all one-handed weapons as light weapons for the purposes of fighting with two weapons. If both weapons you hold are light without the benefit of this feat, and you attack with two weapons on your turn, your off hand weapon attack does not require your bonus action.
You gain +1 to your AC when you hold two melee weapons.
When you use your reaction to make an opportunity attack, you may attack once with each weapon you are holding as part of the same reaction.
 

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