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D&D 5E Consequences of Failure

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Why waste everyone's time like that, though? If it's possible to succeed, and they are going to be able to roll forever, there's no point in making them roll until they get it right. It's a meaningless waste of time.
Only if there's no rerolls ever unless something has materially changed in the fiction. What this forces is that if they want a reroll they have to be creative enough to come up wth another approach to the same goal.

Allowing endless rerolls just makes everything a take-20 - either you can do it or you can't. How dull.
 

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5ekyu

Hero
I'm missing something here - again.

There's many cases, of which the 'is the NPC lying?' is but one, where the relevant consequence doesn't arise on failure, but on success; and the primary (or only) consequence of failure is simply the continued absence of the success condition. That absence may or may not have knock-on consequences down the road e.g. the PCs believe the lie and act on it, but here and now it's merely the status quo - nothing changes.

So why all the worry about having specific consequences for failure as well as for success? Isn't it enough to have just one or the other be significant with the other being status quo, and roll to determine which occurs?

I don't get it.
Because there is a line in the DMG in a paragraph explicitly about tasks ordering ale and walking on a floor that are so trivial - thst sentence in that paragraph soecifically calls out failure consequences as needed for there to be a roll.

Or because in some of these cases, a gm somewhere might allow auto-success on repeated rolla.
 


Oofta

Legend
I'm missing something here - again.

There's many cases, of which the 'is the NPC lying?' is but one, where the relevant consequence doesn't arise on failure, but on success; and the primary (or only) consequence of failure is simply the continued absence of the success condition. That absence may or may not have knock-on consequences down the road e.g. the PCs believe the lie and act on it, but here and now it's merely the status quo - nothing changes.

So why all the worry about having specific consequences for failure as well as for success? Isn't it enough to have just one or the other be significant with the other being status quo, and roll to determine which occurs?

I don't get it.

You're asking the wrong person. I agree.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Just had a mimic in my game and I'm curious as to how you telegraph its presence? The mimic was in a crypt full of sarcophagi and was mimic-ing one in order to guard a secret door. Given that mimic's are indistinguishable when immobile what would have been a good way to alert the PCs to the threat? They'd already encountered some animated armor so knew the crypt was dangerous, but this one definitely felt like a bit of a "gotcha" when it suddenly pounced. :)

Well, not direct, but I just used a trapper pretending to be a rug. Firstly, it was the only rug in the area that hadn't been destroyed -- I made a point about that description. Secondly, it had "writing" on it in the form of dwarven runes. The character investigating this room said, "Oh, I read Dwarvish! I decypher the runes." To which they got, "It's gibberish -- they're not actually runes, but they're close, like if someone tried to make up runes and had no idea what they actually were."

Despite this, the player then became interested in the desk with papers on the other side of the room and went directly there... across the [-]rug[/-] trapper. 🤦

ETA: Oh goodness, that facepalm emoji is horrible.
 

5ekyu

Hero
It is more fun to discover something secret.
But if it will be found, its not secret, just called secret.

At least for us.

If you folks have more fun finding a bag of 100gp labelled "secret gold" than a bag labelled "obvious gold" thats great.

I would say my guys would have and do have more fun when they find and figure out stuff by other means than following telegraphs setup so that everything will be found.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I'm missing something here - again.

There's many cases, of which the 'is the NPC lying?' is but one, where the relevant consequence doesn't arise on failure, but on success; and the primary (or only) consequence of failure is simply the continued absence of the success condition. That absence may or may not have knock-on consequences down the road e.g. the PCs believe the lie and act on it, but here and now it's merely the status quo - nothing changes.

So why all the worry about having specific consequences for failure as well as for success? Isn't it enough to have just one or the other be significant with the other being status quo, and roll to determine which occurs?

I don't get it.

The Wisdom (Insight) check fails. The DM narrates progress combined with a setback: The character is able to spot tells that indicate the NPC's lack of truthfulness (perhaps not about something specific), but the NPC notices the PC is on to him and becomes guarded, making it harder to figure out the NPC's agenda, ideal, bond, flaw or to get the NPC to do what the party needs him to do. That's a meaningful consequence for failure if you're trying to get information out of the NPC and/or get him to do something.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Well, not direct, but I just used a trapper pretending to be a rug. Firstly, it was the only rug in the area that hadn't been destroyed -- I made a point about that description. Secondly, it had "writing" on it in the form of dwarven runes. The character investigating this room said, "Oh, I read Dwarvish! I decypher the runes." To which they got, "It's gibberish -- they're not actually runes, but they're close, like if someone tried to make up runes and had no idea what they actually were."

Despite this, the player then became interested in the desk with papers on the other side of the room and went directly there... across the [-]rug[/-] trapper. 🤦

ETA: Oh goodness, that facepalm emoji is horrible.

But I thought telegraphing meant that players always figured out where the hidden creature or object was.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Really it just looks like you're talking about a preference and adding embellishment here. That there is a hallway is sufficient to state a goal and approach for the players. It's boring, sure, and more detail is better in my view, too. Still, the players can have their characters do stuff even with that little context and the DM can narrate the result of those actions, then repeat the play loop. Perhaps as a result of the PCs' actions, the basic scope of options has changed and there's now revealed environment for the DM to describe.
Of course. Giving a full description just bypasses some obvious questions, is all.

It has little to do with the DM's desire to have the players take any particular course of action.
Sorry, I don't buy this - assuming the players are paying attention and know your 'tells' (which inevitably becomes the case after playing with a given DM for any length of time) you're outright telling them "here's where the interesting stuff is".

It perhaps gives the DM the satisfaction of knowing that he or she runs a fair game without "gotchas"
Here's a huge preference divide between us, I think, in that I don't see "gotchas" as unfair in the least. Sometimes you'll see it coming, sometimes you won't, and most of the time there's a chance of one or the other depending on some dice rolling and greatly influenced by stated approach.

that encourages players to pay attention to gain a better chance of success. It potentially removes the impetus for standard operating procedures which by virtue of their rote nature can be a little stale. To some degree it forces the DM to be more descriptive, hopefully without becoming ponderous, which lends itself to a more immersive experience.
Encouraging players to pay attention and DMs to be more dexscriptive - always a good thing! :) Nothing wrong with SOPs, though - far better than having to go through the whole process every time, and it's only realistic that adventurers, having once been exposed to hidden dangers, are always going to be on the lookout for such.

The DM decides what is obvious and what is not obvious. There is nothing that is by default not obvious. And telegraphing isn't making anything obvious - it's just a clue in the environment. The blood stain on the wall opposite the door. An acrid smell in the air of an otherwise empty chamber. A hollow sound when traversing the stone floor. These things invite exploration rather than obviate it.
There are many things that are by default not obvious. Secret doors are one. Motivations and rationales behind NPC (or even PC) actions can be another. Hidden traps are another. Need I go on?

And while those telegraphing clues you give do invite further investigation of those particular areas, the flip side is that the areas without those clues aren't getting the same attention - which realistically they should be.

If the players investigate, perhaps they find a trap or perhaps they fail to do so. Or maybe they don't investigate - it's up to them, after all - and they run afoul of the trap that you telegraphed. When they then think about the clues you provided, they know they could have avoided their fate but didn't, for which they can only blame themselves rather than the DM for hitting the party with "gotchas." Oh, that explains the blood stain on the wall - argh!
True, and sometimes this is great! But not every time.

Sometimes there's going to be the deadly trap that has no clue provided as to its existence. Sometimes there's going to be the NPC who lies through his teeth and give the PCs no reason to suspect anything. Sometimes there's going to be the secret door that if left unfound means the whole mission is a failure, and they don't find it. These things would happen now and then in reality, so why not in the game?
 

cmad1977

Hero
I presume two things in regards to the characters.
Superior Knowledge and Good Will.

The characters know more about the world they live in than the players. They won’t behave in a way inconsistent with that experience.

So if the heroes are in the swamp of bogey-men hunting the elusive beast... the players don’t have to tell me that they are ‘keeping a look out’. That’s a nonsense ‘gotcha’.
If they are lounging at the spa.... somebody better be on lookout.
 

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