D&D 5E Considering a new concentration mechanic

[Hawk Diesel]

Physical size and strength does effect how much a hit jars you.

NFL players get hit all the time by other NFL players. Those hits don't affect them like they would me. If I was to take a hit from a NFL player I wouldnt be able to concentrate on anything. If I was to take a hit from someone more my size then the hit wouldn't jar me as much and I could concentrate.

Concentration makes sense as a constitution check

But then by the same token why is a Death Save not a constitution check?

And conceptually, having played football and currently playing rugby, hits jar you. But you are also not trained to do mental calculus while you play. You are trained to take a hit and bounce back. Just because I'm a big guy and can take a hit, doesn't mean I could maintain any mental function or task at the time of impact. However, the whole idea of magic and the concentration check is to be able to do just that. We don't have a real life analogue for such activity (at least not that I'm aware of), so assuming someone who is bigger and tougher could do it better isn't really helpful.

 

[Krachek]

Personally I would remove the concentration break cause by damage.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

But then by the same token why is a Death Save not a constitution check?

Game balance purposes, I think.

Just because I'm a big guy and can take a hit, doesn't mean I could maintain any mental function or task at the time of impact.

You can probably maintain mental function better than if you were a scrawny kid in the same situation, though. The scrawny kid would be in relatively more pain than you would be.

 

[LapBandit]

Being able to concentrate on more than one thing at a time comes up from time to time but the game is balanced around it so you shouldn't change it. At higher levels, spellcasters already dominate, no need to further that divide.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

So here's something I'm wondering about. Why is Concentration tied to Constitution? I mean I understand conceptually why, but mechanically this begins to favor those who dip as a first level fighter, and also sorcerers. But why would someone that is physically more resilient be better at maintaining mental focus when experiencing pain?

Because a major factor of that physical resilience is being able to fight on despite the pain of injuries.

On the flip side, consider Death Saves. One would expect that linking it to Constitution makes great sense, since it involves surviving traumatic bodily harm. Yet they didn't do that. Why? Because mechanically, it would favor those that are mechanically hardier such as fighters. And since everyone suffers from the potential to get down to 0 HP, linking Death Saves to any one ability score would inherently favor some over others, which you would think should be avoided for party balance.

Tying death saves to constitution would be 'double-dipping' a little as well: Constitution has already factored in to the level of punishment that the character can endure before they keel over and have to start making death saves.

Physical size and strength does not reflect one's ability to focus. But based on the current mechanic, a Fighter 1/ Wizard 4 has a better shot at maintaining their concentration through a spell than a Wizard 20, simply because the Fighter 1 / Wizard 4 took fighter first and has proficiency in Constitution saving throws. The increased mental aptitude and practice of the level 20 Wizard is far more relevant to their ability to maintain focus in the face of distraction (even physical distraction and pain), yet he is mechanically worse than the less practiced individual.

Physical size and strength does not reflect on one's Constitution score either.
The Fighter, however, has likely endured much more physically demanding and painful training. They are used to not only being hit, but maintaining focus whilst being hit, as would have happened many times in their training.

The Wizard will have been trained to concentrate on spells, but their training regime is likely to be more based around mental pursuits rather than getting hit and hurt a lot.
When it comes to maintaining concentration in the face of physical pain, it seems that the fighter's proficiency in constitution saves gives the edge whilst maintaining concentration whilst getting hit.

Its probably also worth making the point that its not unusual for a PC wizard to have a better Constitution score than a PC Fighter. Con isn't the primary ability score of either, but generally the Fighter will have more use for secondary Str or Dex than the Wizard will, leaving the wizard able to commit to Constitution more.

 

[Arilyn]

I've never been happy with the concentration rules in 5e. They add extra rolling in a game that the designers claimed would reduce dice rolls. They seemed to be liberally tossed on to spells, except sometimes they're not, for often no good reason. Mirror image has no concentration but blur does? And once a magical suggestion is planted in a target, it makes no sense that the caster will have to maintain concentration. The suggestion spell lasts 8 hours, so presumably the target will have wandered away. The spell also mandates that there be a trigger, so why the concentration?

I will sheepishly admit that I have just ditched concentration when I run games. It doesn't seem to have caused any balance problems at all, and its a relief not having to deal with them. I really like Hawk Diesel's ideas, however. Those spells that drop before they actually do anything are just frustrating.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Game balance purposes, I think.

Right. So one mechanic (Concentration) seems to conflate conceptual interpretation (or perhaps a better way is simulationist) while the other is purely game mechanic while ignoring more a more simulationist approach. In these two cases, I don't see how aligning both mechanics to either one or the other would be bad.

You can probably maintain mental function better than if you were a scrawny kid in the same situation, though. The scrawny kid would be in relatively more pain than you would be.

This conflates one's physical ability with mental ability though. Pain is inherently a mental experience. Yes, it is grounded in one's physicality through nerve impulses and such, but the experience of pain is not necessarily physical. Also, look at monks who are able to balance for extended periods on a single finger or who can increase their body temperature through meditation. Implying that one's size can mitigate the impact of outside distractions on mental function doesn't make much sense to me.

Being able to concentrate on more than one thing at a time comes up from time to time but the game is balanced around it so you shouldn't change it. At higher levels, spellcasters already dominate, no need to further that divide.

This is a good analogy. Being able to concentrate on multiple things simultaneously or multitasking is a good analogue for Concentration checks. And according to current D&D 5e mechanics, someone that is more physically hardy is better able to multitask or concentrate. How does that make sense?

But [MENTION=6778098]LapBandit[/MENTION], I agree that we don't need to increase the power of high level magic users. But I also think making Concentration checks more like Death saves does not necessarily increase the power of high level magic users. If anything, it evens the playing field for pure magic users and gish types. But I also think there needs to be a consideration of what is more fun. And as a player, if I want to go into melee despite being squishier than a fighter... or if as a magic user I suddenly need to go into melee because the fighter just went down and needs someone to pull them out, there is nothing that kills fun more than knowing the spell you just cast is a total waste because it got disrupted in the same round you cast it. I don't think a magic user should in general ever be as good at fighting as a fighter. But I also don't like the idea of punishing a player for trying to adopt that role. They already are more likely to be hit and killed because of low AC and HP, and need to use a concentration slot which prevents them from stacking spells. Couldn't that be enough?

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I think the only reason why there's concentration checks on damage was because of the ongoing "save or suck" spells like Hold Person, which are the minority of concentration spells. Yes they do suck when used on anyone, but I don't think any of those spells require line of sight after they're cast, so it's best if the caster just hides away while the offensive concentration spell takes effect.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

The Wizard will have been trained to concentrate on spells, but their training regime is likely to be more based around mental pursuits rather than getting hit and hurt a lot.

This is an assumption based on common D&D and fantasy tropes of the wizard that studies books in his tower. But what if that mental training is more taxing? What if it does include maintaining spells while running from bobcats or getting painful tattoos?

And what if that's because in such worlds, losing concentration while learning these spells wouldn't just result in them fizzling out, but also potentially releasing dangerous energy or effects? This would place a greater emphasis in magical studies on the idea of concentrating in a variety of situations and experiences.

And these situations don't have to just be painful. The description includes that a concentration check could be called for in circumstances such as a storm or other situations that would create distraction. Anyone remember that ridiculous scene in Swordfish where Hugh Jackman has to hack into a database while being pleasured under the table? I'd say Hugh passed his concentration check there, and while he may be jacked, how would being physically hardier help against that when concentrating? Like I said before, from my perspective, concentrating on a spell is likely more along the lines of trying to do mental calculus while everything else is going on, and you can't screw up the equation or you lose it. Being bigger or tougher does not necessarily make that easier.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Right. So one mechanic (Concentration) seems to conflate conceptual interpretation (or perhaps a better way is simulationist) while the other is purely game mechanic while ignoring more a more simulationist approach. In these two cases, I don't see how aligning both mechanics to either one or the other would be bad.

A difference is that death saves are something you never want to be making, because the results of failure are death, so the rules may be erring on the side of fairness or balance rather than integrity to the process. (There are definitely other games which use the equivalent of a Con check in order to stay alive in such situations). Concentration saves aren't that big of a deal, and you might actually choose to put yourself into a position where you would make one. By taking concentration to Con, it also gives spellcasters something to care about, aside from just their one primary stat and maybe Dex. (Not that they didn't already care about Con, but it makes their second or third priority more of a priority.)

This conflates one's physical ability with mental ability though. Pain is inherently a mental experience. Yes, it is grounded in one's physicality through nerve impulses and such, but the experience of pain is not necessarily physical. Also, look at monks who are able to balance for extended periods on a single finger or who can increase their body temperature through meditation. Implying that one's size can mitigate the impact of outside distractions on mental function doesn't make much sense to me.

If you throw a sportsball at a professional jockey, it will make a relatively larger impact than if you throw the same sportsball at a professional sumo wrestler. It's a greater displacement, which is why one is harder to ignore. You might not flinch if someone shoots you with a nerf dart, but you would probably flinch if someone shoots you with a bowling ball. Mass is relative, and Constitution is your Mass stat. A big fat guy with Con 20 has the same chance to keep concentration after taking 30 damage as a normal person with Con 10 has to keep concentration after taking 20 damage or less. (And if the idea of concentrating through 30 damage sounds silly, recall that the mechanic originally only allowed you to ignore like 1 or 2 damage, because they also thought that ignoring the impact of 30 damage sounded silly.)

Monks are trained to ignore pain. To put it in 3E terms, they have Concentration as a class skill, even though it does nothing for them mechanically. In 5E terms, I guess you would say that they should have proficiency in Con saves - which they actually are, at high levels.