D&D 5E Considering Dual Wielder Feat change proposals

[LapBandit]

The free attack sounds reasonable for single-attack classes like Rogue, but I don't think it'll hold up to the sniff test with multi-attack classes with the first option.

The second version is more reasonable but auto-advantage on any hit with the main hand is pretty unnecessary, IMO.

The part that makes DW balanced is the same thing that makes it less-optimal when compared to GWF, the opportunity cost of your bonus action to take another swing for the fences..

How would it not be up to snuff?

I disagree that it is balanced at all, hence the changes.

It's funny that you use the euphemism of "swinging for the fences" which is something you do with a two-handed baseball bat =). The feat cannot be balanced against the player it has to be balanced against other feats.

 

[Ganymede81]

Changes to the feat in red


[*]Your off-hand attack becomes part of your Attack Action, freeing up your Bonus Action.
[*]If you miss an attack during an Attack Action, you can use your Bonus Action to retry that attack.

That is crazy good. In situations other than when you hit with all of your attacks, this is basically an extra attack. This, alone, seems better than +2 to a stat.

 

[psychophipps]

True, then the best "fix" is probably just to allow the Dual Wielder to also re-roll ones. They get +STR twice with a likely higher die (1d8+STR thrice with bonus used vs 2d6+STR twice) with the chance of a miss. No advantage needed and certainly no free hits with the second weapon.

The thing to keep in mind is that people taking this are fairly likely going to be adding some "special sauce" of some sort to this knuckle sammich. Clerics get +d8 autosmite along with paladins. Rangers can take Giant Slayer for an extra d8 if they're wounded at all (or whatever it's called). Rogues get Sneak Attack. Even with "just a fighter" you can get kinda crazy with an action surge in there if all the strikes somehow manage to hit.

 

[Ganymede81]

You could possibly fix it by adding +1 to hit to Dual Wielder.

That way, it would represent most of the combat benefits of both a pip of strength AND a pip of dexterity (+1 AC, +1 to hit, +1 in average damage) as well as the extra flexibility in drawing weapons, but it would only work when dual wielding and would not grant any of the ancillary benefits of improved stats (initiative, skills, saves, carry capacity, etc.).

On the other hand, maybe the problem isn't with the feat but with the dual wielding rules themselves.

 

[TwoSix]

To be honest, I don't see that it will ever really "balance", and that's not really as bad a thing as some of the DPR-based folks think. I would gladly trade a bit of DPR for the ability to describe a Ranger wading into some Orcs with a battleaxe in one hand and a warhammer in the other, a dervish of destruction as he parries their weapons aside, and attacking three separate foes. Great roleplaying often has an opportunity cost after all.

Why not just describe it how you want, and just do more damage while you do it? You can still be a whirling dervish of description in your head whether you're doing 12 DPR or 20, you know. They're completely orthogonal attributes.

 

[TwoSix]

That is crazy good. In situations other than when you hit with all of your attacks, this is basically an extra attack. This, alone, seems better than +2 to a stat.

Meh. It gives a rogue 3 chances to land his sneak attack, and do a maximum of 2 hits worth of damage. Before, the rogue had 2 chances to land his sneak attack, to do a maximum of 2 hits worth of damage. It also means he has a greater chance of landing his sneak attack and preserving his bonus action for Cunning Action. So basically it makes a rogue with Dual Wielder more versatile and increases his chance of doing his damage, but doesn't increase his damage ceiling.

It makes a nice contrast to Great Weapon Master, which decreases the odds of success but massively increases the damage ceiling of a single attack round.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Changes to the feat in red

Option 1 : Dual Wielder

• Your off-hand attack becomes part of your Attack Action, freeing up your Bonus Action.
• If you miss an attack during an Attack Action, you can use your Bonus Action to retry that attack.

Just for clarity, how does this interact with Extra Attack? Dual Wielding only falls behind with Extra Attack.

If you only get one per Extra Attack action, then the potential max is the same, but it raises the floor.

It doesn't help OAs, or extra attacks like Haste or Ranger Hunter. - although it would raise the average on these as well.

[/COLOR]Option 2 : Dual Wielder
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:.

• If you hit with your main-hand on any of your attacks during the Attack Action, your off-hand attack becomes Advantaged.

Again only changes the average not the potential.

My solution in Obvious Arcana was to add Dual Strike options at the common combat rules level. With 3 options depending on where you wanted Two Weapon fighting to fall matched against Dueling Style and Great Weapon Style. And accounting for other issues one might have with TWF like LS/dagger and rapier/dagger. Or the interactions with non-melee thrown or light weapons.

Because not everyone wants TWF to be top dog.

 

[Ganymede81]

Meh. [It] doesn't increase his damage ceiling.

I'm not sure this is salient.

Average damage is a much more valuable metric for determining the value of a bonus.

 

[LapBandit]

Just for clarity, how does this interact with Extra Attack? Dual Wielding only falls behind with Extra Attack.

Neither would give more attacks than described for Dual Wielding in the PHB.

My solution in Obvious Arcana was to add Dual Strike options at the common combat rules level.

What is Obvious Arcana and what does Dual Strike do?

EDIT: It looks like Dual Strike (from 3.5 or 4?) allows you to attack with both weapons at once.

I'm not sure how that would work under the current rules if you get Extra Attack?

 

[Ganymede81]

I'm not sure how that would work under the current rules if you get Extra Attack?

Presumably, it just means you combine the damage die of each weapon for every iterative attack.

Compare to a maul user. Someone with a maul would do 2d6+Str bludgeoning damage with every hit, while someone dual attacking with say two maces would also do 2d6+Str bludgeoning damage with every hit. I'm not sure how it would work if you mixed damage types, nor how to prevent weapon combinations from doing more than 2d6 in total weapon die damage.