Consolidating +2/+2 feats into one customizable feat?
- Thread starter haiiro
- Start date
haiiro
First Post
Adding the minor constraint that the skills need to be related makes sense to me.
As far as balance issues go, I don't think that allowing a spellcaster to take Concentration and Spellcraft as the enhanced skills is all that different than a rogue taking Stealthy (Hide and Move Silently bonuses). The feat enhances something that the character is good at - which is what feats do - and does so at the expense of other bonuses (things like Spell Focus, etc.).
Following nharwell's approach, it might also work well if the "+1 to one save and +2 to one skill" feats were also folded into one customizable feat.
As far as balance issues go, I don't think that allowing a spellcaster to take Concentration and Spellcraft as the enhanced skills is all that different than a rogue taking Stealthy (Hide and Move Silently bonuses). The feat enhances something that the character is good at - which is what feats do - and does so at the expense of other bonuses (things like Spell Focus, etc.).
Following nharwell's approach, it might also work well if the "+1 to one save and +2 to one skill" feats were also folded into one customizable feat.
Hashmalum
Explorer
The problem with allowing a caster to take one feat to get +2 to both Spellcraft and Concentration is that most spellcasters, especially wizards, will take it. "Must-have feats" are, IMO, a bad thing. They cost feat slots a character could be using to make him or herself more unique and special.
Not all rogues take Stealthy because not all rogues focus on sneaking around unnoticed. Rogues can focus on getting into difficult places that the rest of the party can't reach (Climb and Balance), finding and disabling traps (Search and Disable Device), robbery (Pick Pockets and Open Locks), and a whole host of other activities. If all the rogues in your campaign take Stealthy, then that probably says more about the challenges players face in your campaign than about game balance in general.
Spellcasters, by contrast, mostly cast spells. Most of the spellcaster's choices come in the choice of spells, not the skills needed to learn and cast them. This is especially true for arcane spellcasters, who tend to have fewer class abilities than divine spellcasters. Arcane spellcasters also rely more heavily on Concentration because of their lack of armor, and wizards rely more heavily on Spellcraft to learn new spells.
As a final aside, Concentration and Spellcraft aren't IMO truly related to one another in the same way that Move Silently and Hide are; Move Silently and Hide are both integral parts of a single activity, sneaking. (And as mentioned, both use the same key ability.) Concentration and Spellcraft are both helpful to the same class of person, but the skills themselves are very different and have little to do with each other. What does the ability to ignore pain and distractions have to do with being very knowledgeable about how magic works? Not much. The two skills aren't even used for the same activity; you use Concentration to actually cast the spells, but you use Spellcraft to learn them.
Not all rogues take Stealthy because not all rogues focus on sneaking around unnoticed. Rogues can focus on getting into difficult places that the rest of the party can't reach (Climb and Balance), finding and disabling traps (Search and Disable Device), robbery (Pick Pockets and Open Locks), and a whole host of other activities. If all the rogues in your campaign take Stealthy, then that probably says more about the challenges players face in your campaign than about game balance in general.
Spellcasters, by contrast, mostly cast spells. Most of the spellcaster's choices come in the choice of spells, not the skills needed to learn and cast them. This is especially true for arcane spellcasters, who tend to have fewer class abilities than divine spellcasters. Arcane spellcasters also rely more heavily on Concentration because of their lack of armor, and wizards rely more heavily on Spellcraft to learn new spells.
As a final aside, Concentration and Spellcraft aren't IMO truly related to one another in the same way that Move Silently and Hide are; Move Silently and Hide are both integral parts of a single activity, sneaking. (And as mentioned, both use the same key ability.) Concentration and Spellcraft are both helpful to the same class of person, but the skills themselves are very different and have little to do with each other. What does the ability to ignore pain and distractions have to do with being very knowledgeable about how magic works? Not much. The two skills aren't even used for the same activity; you use Concentration to actually cast the spells, but you use Spellcraft to learn them.
Khorod
First Post
Would a +2/+2 to Spellcraft and Concentration be worth Empower Spell? Craft Wands?
For spellcasting in combat, they certainly are related. I view spellcraft as including an understanding of how spellcasting works. Concentration, to a wizard, is getting in the right frame of mind for spellcasting, which requires ignoring all interference.
Are they worth more to a Mage than Hide & MS to a Rogue?
For spellcasting in combat, they certainly are related. I view spellcraft as including an understanding of how spellcasting works. Concentration, to a wizard, is getting in the right frame of mind for spellcasting, which requires ignoring all interference.
Are they worth more to a Mage than Hide & MS to a Rogue?
Hashmalum
Explorer
At low levels, yes. In the extreme case, that of a 1st level wizard choosing his first one or two feats, certainly. The above character wouldn't even qualify to take Craft Wands, and what's he going to do with Empower Spell? Empower a ray of frost? Not likely. At higher levels, the character will have spell slots to burn on metamagic, gold and XP to spend on item creation, and enough skill ranks that the +2/+2 will become less significant. IMO, a hypothetical +2 Spellcraft/+2 Concentration feat should have some sort of requirement, even a very minor one, such that it doesn't start showing up in every single wizard's feat list.
Destil
Explorer
Spell focus is valuable from level 1, Two Spell foci or spell focus and a greater spell focus could be more worthwhile than +2 concentration +2 spellcraft, for many. Then at 3rd you can take craft wonderous or brew potion at 5th you can make wands, and with 3rd level spell slots meta-magic startws to become attractive (an extended mage armor no longer takes one of your highest level slots, for instance). Then at 6th you may want more meta-magic, craft arms and armor... by 9th you'll most likely want spell penetration....
This dosn't even cover things that help you survive (great fortitude, lightning reflexes, toughness) or some of the more odd-ball choices. Weapon focus(ray) & improved critical(ray), anyone? Eshew materials?
I seriously doubt every wizard would take it.
This dosn't even cover things that help you survive (great fortitude, lightning reflexes, toughness) or some of the more odd-ball choices. Weapon focus(ray) & improved critical(ray), anyone? Eshew materials?
I seriously doubt every wizard would take it.
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Khorod
First Post
And every long-term planning wizard will also seriously reconsider it. Taking it amounts to advanced training in the basics of wizardry, rather than gaining some specializations- or building on weaknesses. Sure, not all those things will be useful for some time. I don't think this would be a must have for anything but one-shots or *really* slow-leveling games.
haiiro
First Post
I don't think using the key ability as the basis for determining related skills would work out well. Here's a few examples:
- Constitution has only one skill: Concentration.
- Intelligence has: Alchemy, which has nothing to do with Forgery, Decipher Script, etc.
- Charisma has: Disguise, which has nothing to do with Animal Empathy.
That model holds up well in some other cases (Intuit Direction and Wilderness Lore could plausibly be related, and both are Wisdom-based skills, for example) - but falls short in enough instances that I don't think it's that useful.
I think the DM's judgment is probably the best arbiter of which skills are and are not related.
I think I'm beginning to come back around to the notion that Talented: Concentration & Spellcraft would not be a must-have feat for spellcasters - even arcane spellcasters.
Can anyone think of another pairing that would create a must-have feat for a particular class? At present, I can't think of one.
- Constitution has only one skill: Concentration.
- Intelligence has: Alchemy, which has nothing to do with Forgery, Decipher Script, etc.
- Charisma has: Disguise, which has nothing to do with Animal Empathy.
That model holds up well in some other cases (Intuit Direction and Wilderness Lore could plausibly be related, and both are Wisdom-based skills, for example) - but falls short in enough instances that I don't think it's that useful.
I think the DM's judgment is probably the best arbiter of which skills are and are not related.
I think I'm beginning to come back around to the notion that Talented: Concentration & Spellcraft would not be a must-have feat for spellcasters - even arcane spellcasters.
Can anyone think of another pairing that would create a must-have feat for a particular class? At present, I can't think of one.
