D&D 5E Conversation with NPCs turns into combat

[FormerlyHemlock]

I have been intrigued by this idea since you posted about it, and I periodically think about using it, but when I think through scenarios it seems like much more often than not, there are enough dependencies that everyone would end up rolling initiative anyway. So if you don't mind, since you brought it up in this thread, take the situation as described in the OP and for simplicity assume that no one is surprised. The NPC is casting an AoE that will potentially affect all the PCs and if he has a lick of sense he will try to move to cover after casting. I find it hard to imagine any reasonable actions on the PCs part that would not have me wanting pretty much a total ordering for resolving actions. If you are willing to indulge me, would you sketch out how this scenario could play out without the need for the NPC and all the PCs to make initiative rolls? Choose whatever actions for the PCs you would like or assume a couple try to close to melee and a couple make ranged attacks and then move to cover. This seems like a bit of an ask, but if your willing to spend a few minutes on it, I would be appreciative.

This particular example is extremely simple, since there's only one NPC and he's the first one acting: he casts his spell while all the PCs are on implicit Delay (negotiating), and then all the PCs take their turns. Since there are no other NPCs in the combat, PCs can basically just take their turns whenever the players decide what they want, and so I'd probably just let them do that: once you roll dice, that means your action has taken effect and you can't take it back. (In rules terms this means that I'm also assuming an implicit Delay for any player who is slow to declare his action.) Once everyone has taken an action, the round ends.

I suspect what you're really interested in is the SECOND round, when the NPC does not necessarily go first. (If this is what you meant by "no one is surprised", then for you this would be the first round.) I suspect you're right and that, since the enemy is moving away, it might require initiative rolls all around. Let me work this out real quick:

DM: [to the players of Rath and Rupert, Int 9 Dwarf Fighter and Int 11 Half-elf Ranger respectively] Okay, guys, you're not sure what Shoalar Quanderil is going to do this round but you need to make up your minds. Rath, what are you doing?

Rath's player: Chaaaarge! I hit him as hard as I can, of course. [It's been established by long practice that what Rath says 'Charge', he means 'move and attack if possible, otherwise Dash to get as close as possible.'] And then I action surge to hit him some more, if I can. [It's also been established that Rath's player is using GWM whenever he says "hit him as hard I can can".]

Rupert player: Can I shoot over Rath?*

DM: Sure, he's short.

[* This exchange has become something of a ritual for this play group.]

Rupert: Okay, then I'm shooting Sholar Quatrone and ensnaring him with Ensnaring Strike.

DM: Well, Shoalar Quanderil casts another Tidal Wave right on you, Rath, and Delsenora. [points to map] Then he jumps off the pier into the ocean.

Delsenora: Except that can see what he's doing, and I'm Blinding him and then withdrawing 20', back onto the bridge, so I won't get caught in the same wave as Rupert.

DM: Okay, then it might only get Rupert if you're fast enough. Let's resolve.

Rath: [so ready for this--he's already rolled while everyone else was talking] Wham, wham, wham! I hit him three out of four times for 63 points of damage! Do I kill him?

DM: Not quite, but he's definitely hurting if those blows landed. What's your initiative? [roll, roll] It seems that you did barely manage to hit him as he was still casting Tidal Wave, so not only do you escape his spell, but instead of just diving into the water, you basically backhand him into the water with your axe and jump in after him!

Rath: Yesssss! [notice he doesn't object to following the bad guy into the water--charging is his Modus Operandi.]

Rupert: I missed him, twice.

Rath: Awwww. So he's still alive.

Delsenora: [rolls dice] I lost initiative so Quandros Whatsisface, so, yeah, I get hit with Tidal Wave.

DM: [rolls] 19 points of damage to both you and Rupert, DC 14 Dex save for half.

Rupert: [rolls] I dodge it! Only 9 points of damage for me.

Delsenora: [rolls] I dodge... poorly. 19 points of damage for me, and no Blindness because he's underwater, right?

DM: Right. You don't manage to get your spell off--deduct no spell points, but he doesn't have to save.

Delsenora: [ruefully] I should have Delayed instead, or Counterspelled.

DM: So, to recap, it's been twelve seconds since things exploded into action. Delsenora is coughing up seawater, Rupert is cursing his aim and blessing his nimble legs, and Rath is kicking his legs furiously to remain afloat, and menacing Shoalar with his great big axe. Shoalar is starting to look alarmed at this turn of events. Declare actions for round three!

[and off they go]

 

[Celebrim]

So, you have a "meeting encounter".

Normally, surprise can't be achieved. Everyone knows everyone is there. Everyone is wary. No one is hidden from anyone.

You roll initiative. If the guy with the spell wins, he goes first.

As an optional rule, you could allow a character to cozen everyone into not being on their guard. This normally takes some sort of social check (bluff/deception sort of thing), and is normally quite difficult unless the party legitimately trusts the person and has no reason to suspect them of any ill-will. If one side drops their guard, I allow the party that has duped the other side into relaxing their guard to obtain surprise. This is resisted by a perception sort of check (Insight/Sense Motive).

Note that plying a your marks with food and wine makes it much easier to drop their guard, so if you want to do this sort of ambush, you play the gracious host.

 

[Celebrim]

[MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]: The problem I have with your procedure is that smart players can and will use it against you.

One of the oldest table arguments I can remember, dating back to like 6th grade, was whether in a negotiation, the side that declared "I attack first!", automatically achieved surprise.

If you go with your procedure, anyone that wants to fight automatically wins surprise... and this will be very detrimental to anyone ever wanting to parlay at your table. I've seen tables like that, and the PC's very quickly decide that not only should they never talk or negotiate, but its best to just kill everyone they meet before they have a chance to start talking.

@Ovimancer's discussion is quite pertinent. Imagine for example you tried to run a Western RPG were the guy that declared he drew his weapon first always got the first attack. The way you want to play this sort of scene IMO is the bad guy reaches for his 'gun' first, and despite that, the PC beats him on the draw (or at least has a chance of doing so).

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

@Hemlock: The problem I have with your procedure is that smart players can and will use it against you.

One of the oldest table arguments I can remember, dating back to like 6th grade, was whether in a negotiation, the side that declared "I attack first!", automatically achieved surprise.

If you go with your procedure, anyone that wants to fight automatically wins surprise... and this will be very detrimental to anyone ever wanting to parlay at your table. I've seen tables like that, and the PC's very quickly decide that not only should they never talk or negotiate, but its best to just kill everyone they meet before they have a chance to start talking.

You deeply misunderstand what my procedure is.

Surprise, in 5E terms, means someone does not get to act this round. I reserve surprise for "code white" situations where you are not expecting any kind of threat, such as werewolves attacking you in the library, or the mental paralysis that happens when your grandmother tries to cut your throat with a knife. Surprise is not going to happen during your meeting with a potentially-hostile NPC: you're aware of a threat. You will not spend a round unable to act.

All I suggest is that if you're already using a concurrent initiative system, things play out naturally. As outlined in my response to Harzel above, the guy who's doing the thing that triggers the action automatically goes first, because that's logical. There's a separate question of whether or not the guy can avoid giving out a "tell" that he's about to act, and you could appropriately use Deception vs. Insight for that--but for purposes of this question let's assume there is no tell and it's a "Han shoots Greedo" situation. Even if Greedo survives the blaster bolt, he cannot possibly go back in time and respond to Han's shot before Han makes it. So, Greedo automatically loses initiative this round--but his advantage is that he now gets to declare his action after Han's shot is resolved. I call this "Delay", and some of my players frequently declare this action voluntarily: it's not a punishment.

Of course, if the enemy kills you in that first action, as happened with Greedo, then you may very much regret letting the enemy go first this round. If you think the guy you're talking with can crush you like a bug in a single action, keep a very close eye on his tells, or Ready an action first to do something as soon as he raises a hand (to cast a spell), or just back away slowly instead of continuing the conversation.

If on the other hand the enemy is just going to do something like 4d8 damage when he wins initiative, then you didn't really lose much of anything by Delaying. You still get your action this round, and you get the moral satisfaction of knowing that you tried to talk things out first.

If everyone who hasn't yet acted in a round Delays instead of declaring an action, the round ends and a now round begins. This is how conversations between hostile parties normally work: both sides are just Delaying as they talk, so both sides are willing to continue talking. If you Ready an action to Action Surge the other guy into oblivion the instant the twitches a finger, he will probably notice, and it might put a damper on his willingness to continue talking.

What I've found is that allowing Delay to function this way encourages players to negotiate or pause whenever they think they need to, even after combat has already started, because it doesn't mean giving up opportunities to attack or cast spells--merely delaying them. Sometimes this results in a negotiated surrender (by PCs or NPCs). Sometimes this results in Mexican standoffs that last minutes or even hours (when undead are involved), until something changes the status quo.

@Ovimancer's discussion is quite pertinent. Imagine for example you tried to run a Western RPG were the guy that declared he drew his weapon first always got the first attack. The way you want to play this sort of scene IMO is the bad guy reaches for his 'gun' first, and despite that, the PC beats him on the draw (or at least has a chance of doing so).

Meh. In a Western gunslinger I'd have more complicated rules for modeling actions with a duration. In 5E I don't find that it would add anything. The only thing it affects is a corner case which is already adequately handled by concurrent initiative's standard construct: implicit Delay.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I'm envisioning a situation in my PotA campaign session tonight where the PCs are talking to Shoalar Quanderil in the Womford Rats encounter. I've kind of decided that Shoalar will probably get bored of the conversation quite quickly and will cast Tidal Wave at the PCs standing on the dockside.

Actually, the conversation should be... "Hmmm...well, honestly, I don't trust you guys. You could be lieing to get me to [insert whatever makes sense]. Ok. How about this. Don't attack. I'm going to cast a spell that will let me know if you are lieing to me or not. Alright? Then we can talk... ... ... ...ok. [starts casting Tidal Wave]"

I mean, he is a bad guy right? I've had bad guys do this to my players PC's on more than one occasion over the decades. Oddly enough, it doesn't work much any more, no matter what PC's the players are playing. Huh....go figure.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Celebrim]

You deeply misunderstand what my procedure is.

I don't think I do.

As outlined in my response to Harzel above, the guy who's doing the thing that triggers the action automatically goes first, because that's logical.

Well, then I don't think I misunderstood, and I don't think that's remotely logical.

Of course, if the enemy kills you in that first action, as happened with Greedo, then you may very much regret letting the enemy go first this round.

I used to joke back in 1e that the surprise round was the early portion of combat, the initiative was the midgame, and the first round was the finale. Generally speaking, in D&D, combats are over in between 1/2 and 3 rounds. It might be a little bit higher in 5e, but I don't imagine it is much. The advantage of a 'first strike' in this situation is overwhelming.

f you think the guy you're talking with can crush you like a bug in a single action, keep a very close eye on his tells, or Ready an action first to do something as soon as he raises a hand (to cast a spell)...

In a meeting engagement, were both sides have some reason to be wary, you can presume that such readied actions have always occurred. And of course both sides have realized the other is ready and able to engage in battle - that's both why they are wary and why they have chosen to keep talking.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I don't think I do.

Well, then I don't think I misunderstood, and I don't think that's remotely logical.

Well then, either you are abusing 5E jargon by using some special meaning of "surprise" (in 5E, surprise = cannot act during the first round, cannot take reactions until after your first turn has passed), or you misunderstand me after all. Why muddy the issue by using 5E jargon wrong? It only obscures your actual opinion.

In any case, the thing you say you suspect ought to happen, doesn't. Far from players being eager to end conversation in favor of starting combat, sometimes they will in fact initiate conversations in combat instead of striking. (Especially if they are losing. : ) )

In a meeting engagement, were both sides have some reason to be wary, you can presume that such readied actions have always occurred. And of course both sides have realized the other is ready and able to engage in battle - that's both why they are wary and why they have chosen to keep talking.

No, you should not presume readied actions which the players have not declared. For one thing, you might presume a different action or trigger than that which the player wishes to occur. For another thing, on the NPC's part, it tends to aggravate the other party to no real gain when they see you're obviously on hair-trigger to cut their heads off or turn them into newts.

It's not like being the first one to deal 4d8 damage to the other side on the first round buys you any permanent advantage. Under cyclic initiative, yes, it would buy you an extra action, which is like a free Action Surge--but that's just one of the odious properties of cyclic initiative. It doesn't happen that way in a concurrent initiative variant.

 

[Harzel]

This particular example is extremely simple, since there's only one NPC and he's the first one acting: he casts his spell while all the PCs are on implicit Delay (negotiating), and then all the PCs take their turns. Since there are no other NPCs in the combat, PCs can basically just take their turns whenever the players decide what they want, and so I'd probably just let them do that: once you roll dice, that means your action has taken effect and you can't take it back. (In rules terms this means that I'm also assuming an implicit Delay for any player who is slow to declare his action.) Once everyone has taken an action, the round ends.

Oh, ok, that's an interesting way to look at that.

I suspect what you're really interested in is the SECOND round, when the NPC does not necessarily go first. (If this is what you meant by "no one is surprised", then for you this would be the first round.)

Yes.

I suspect you're right and that, since the enemy is moving away, it might require initiative rolls all around. Let me work this out real quick:

Thanks!

DM: [to the players of Rath and Rupert, Int 9 Dwarf Fighter and Int 11 Half-elf Ranger respectively] Okay, guys, you're not sure what Shoalar Quanderil is going to do this round but you need to make up your minds. Rath, what are you doing?

Rath's player: Chaaaarge! I hit him as hard as I can, of course. [It's been established by long practice that what Rath says 'Charge', he means 'move and attack if possible, otherwise Dash to get as close as possible.'] And then I action surge to hit him some more, if I can. [It's also been established that Rath's player is using GWM whenever he says "hit him as hard I can can".]

Macros FTW

Rupert player: Can I shoot over Rath?*

DM: Sure, he's short.

[* This exchange has become something of a ritual for this play group.]

Rupert: Okay, then I'm shooting Sholar Quatrone and ensnaring him with Ensnaring Strike.

DM: Well, Shoalar Quanderil casts another Tidal Wave right on you, Rath, and Delsenora. [points to map] Then he jumps off the pier into the ocean.

Delsenora: Except that can see what he's doing, and I'm Blinding him and then withdrawing 20', back onto the bridge, so I won't get caught in the same wave as Rupert.

IIRC, declaration order is based on INT? That is why Rath and Rupert had to declare before knowing what the NPC was up to, but Delsenora* gets to declare last. Correct?

*Somewhere there should be an NPC ally who greets her with "Delsenora... Delsenora... I see heaven when I see thee, Delsenora."

DM: Okay, then it might only get Rupert if you're fast enough. Let's resolve.

Rath: [so ready for this--he's already rolled while everyone else was talking] Wham, wham, wham! I hit him three out of four times for 63 points of damage! Do I kill him?

DM: Not quite, but he's definitely hurting if those blows landed. What's your initiative? [roll, roll] It seems that you did barely manage to hit him as he was still casting Tidal Wave, so not only do you escape his spell, but instead of just diving into the water, you basically backhand him into the water with your axe and jump in after him!

Rath: Yesssss! [notice he doesn't object to following the bad guy into the water--charging is his Modus Operandi.]

Rupert: I missed him, twice.

Rath: Awwww. So he's still alive.

Delsenora: [rolls dice] I lost initiative so Quandros Whatsisface, so, yeah, I get hit with Tidal Wave.

DM: [rolls] 19 points of damage to both you and Rupert, DC 14 Dex save for half.

Rupert: [rolls] I dodge it! Only 9 points of damage for me.

Delsenora: [rolls] I dodge... poorly. 19 points of damage for me, and no Blindness because he's underwater, right?

DM: Right. You don't manage to get your spell off--deduct no spell points, but he doesn't have to save.

Delsenora: [ruefully] I should have Delayed instead, or Counterspelled.

Since she went last anyway, how would Delay have helped in this instance?

​

DM: So, to recap, it's been twelve seconds since things exploded into action. Delsenora is coughing up seawater, Rupert is cursing his aim and blessing his nimble legs, and Rath is kicking his legs furiously to remain afloat, and menacing Shoalar with his great big axe. Shoalar is starting to look alarmed at this turn of events. Declare actions for round three!

[and off they go]

Ok, very good description. I think maybe one thing that gets in my (or really my players') way has now crystallized for me. With cyclic initiative, at the time a player declares their action, they have exactly one scenario to deal with. With an approach that wants to have concurrent actions, but uses initiative rolls when it must during resolution, the player faces a fluid situation which can play out differently depending on initiative rolls - or at least that is the way a player used to cyclic initiative is likely to think about it. The 'problem' is more or less noticeable depending on how widely initiative rolls are needed in the resolution. And one major cause of dependencies that in turn cause initiative rolls that in turn induce multiple scenarios is somebody casting an AoE.

As an example, suppose we look at the situation above from Shoalar's point of view, with one change - that Rupert also declares that he is also going to move in addition to shooting (which seems like it would be not that unusual). If he is an NPC, we don't mind him doing something dramatic but nonoptimal. But if he is a PC (with Rath & company as NPCs), then he is going to be more worried about the effectiveness of his action. So when Shoalar declares his action, he knows that Rath and Rupert are going to be moving and that Dels gets to declare after him, which means she will undoubtedly move also if he is casting Tidal Wave. Casting Tidal Wave (or any other AoE) now seems like a questionable decision, because if he goes with a simple action declaration - cast Tidal Wave at a particular fixed spot - he might catch all three, but he could also end up doing nothing more than creating a big puddle.

The only way I see for Shoalar to alleviate this is to (if allowed) make a more complicated action declaration - one that defines some aspects of his action in terms of what has been done by those with higher initiative rolls. But you don't get very far down that path before it looks a lot like cyclic initiative, but with a programming exercise added in for Shoalar's action declaration.

To me, this doesn't seem like an unlikely case because I have 3 casters amongst my PCs (well, 4, but the druid never casts - long story) and the one time that I suggested trying concurrent out, two of them wanted to cast AoEs first thing. They had no idea how to proceed in a way that made sense to them, and I didn't have any help for them.

Am I missing something? In any case, I do thank you again for engaging on this.

 

[Imaculata]

In my opinion, if the players are talking to an NPC, and he starts chanting a spell, logic would dictate that the players can immediately draw their swords and attack before he has finished uttering the whole incantation. They are already paying attention to the npc, so why wouldn't they be able to react? Whether they get him in time, that is what the initiative roll is for, and you can give the npc advantage, if you think that's reasonable.

My players have been in a similar situation. They're talking to someone in a tavern, and suddenly the npc kicks over the table and draws his sword. Everyone rolls initiative at that moment. The attack may be unexpected, but they are not surprised.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Macros FTW

Absolutely. I'm a big believer in encouraging them.

IIRC, declaration order is based on INT? That is why Rath and Rupert had to declare before knowing what the NPC was up to, but Delsenora* gets to declare last. Correct?

Correct.

*Somewhere there should be an NPC ally who greets her with "Delsenora... Delsenora... I see heaven when I see thee, Delsenora."

I see what you did there. : )

Since she went last anyway, how would Delay have helped in this instance?

Delay lets you declare your action after other actions have been resolved. It's the equivalent of, in fencing, pausing for a beat before committing to an attack. In Delsenora's case, it would mean that instead of trying to cast Blindness but maybe being too slow, she'd definitely be too slow to cast Blindness before Shoalar moved but could respond to events that actually unfolded. For instance, if Rupert had managed to Ensnare Shoalar with his Ensnaring Strike, then Delsenora could be right behind him with a Hold Person--but if Rupert missed as in fact he actually did, she could instead do something like Polymorph Rath into a Great White Shark now that he's in the water.

And if there were a hidden fifth combatant, like an invisible imp allied with Shoalar, Delsenora would have been free to respond to whatever that fifth combatant did instead of the action she committed to.

Ok, very good description. I think maybe one thing that gets in my (or really my players') way has now crystallized for me. With cyclic initiative, at the time a player declares their action, they have exactly one scenario to deal with. With an approach that wants to have concurrent actions, but uses initiative rolls when it must during resolution, the player faces a fluid situation which can play out differently depending on initiative rolls - or at least that is the way a player used to cyclic initiative is likely to think about it. The 'problem' is more or less noticeable depending on how widely initiative rolls are needed in the resolution. And one major cause of dependencies that in turn cause initiative rolls that in turn induce multiple scenarios is somebody casting an AoE.

As an example, suppose we look at the situation above from Shoalar's point of view, with one change - that Rupert also declares that he is also going to move in addition to shooting (which seems like it would be not that unusual). If he is an NPC, we don't mind him doing something dramatic but nonoptimal. But if he is a PC (with Rath & company as NPCs), then he is going to be more worried about the effectiveness of his action. So when Shoalar declares his action, he knows that Rath and Rupert are going to be moving and that Dels gets to declare after him, which means she will undoubtedly move also if he is casting Tidal Wave. Casting Tidal Wave (or any other AoE) now seems like a questionable decision, because if he goes with a simple action declaration - cast Tidal Wave at a particular fixed spot - he might catch all three, but he could also end up doing nothing more than creating a big puddle.

It doesn't have to be a fixed spot, it just has to be a fixed intention, one that he could have realistically and reasonably have. As DM I would accept "I, Shoalar, am casting Tidal Wave to hit that elf dude with the bow and as many of his allies as I can, preferably the human witch too."

Edit: hmmm, maybe I should have enemies declare actions in their own "voices". "I, Grumph Thunderkilt, smash talky-dwarf's brains through his skull with big club!" That's actually more fun than third-person "the Hill Giant swats at you repeatedly with his big club."

The only way I see for Shoalar to alleviate this is to (if allowed) make a more complicated action declaration - one that defines some aspects of his action in terms of what has been done by those with higher initiative rolls. But you don't get very far down that path before it looks a lot like cyclic initiative, but with a programming exercise added in for Shoalar's action declaration.

It has to be simple enough for you to describe to the DM and for the DM to keep in his head. There's a theoretical point at which I would say, "No, that's too complicated," but in practice that doesn't happen because players just declare "I Delay" instead. If it's moderately complicated it may trigger initiative rolls for everybody, as Shoalar's declaration sort of did: only Rupert didn't have to roll initiative, because he missed twice and didn't move, and the timing of a miss doesn't matter. (If he had moved then initiative might have affected whether Delsenora was hit by the Tidal Wave. Conversely, if the players had started out already in a dispersed formation then initiative would not have affected whether Delsenora got hit, even if Rupert did not move.)

To me, this doesn't seem like an unlikely case because I have 3 casters amongst my PCs (well, 4, but the druid never casts - long story) and the one time that I suggested trying concurrent out, two of them wanted to cast AoEs first thing. They had no idea how to proceed in a way that made sense to them, and I didn't have any help for them.

Am I missing something? In any case, I do thank you again for engaging on this.

I dunno. It's possible that there's a playstyle difference. Could you explain to me why it was problematic that two of the players wanted to cast AoEs? What goal of yours did that interfere with, avoiding initiative rolls?

Remember that avoiding initiative rolls is not an explicit goal of the system. Keeping players engaged and making combat more interesting (and more intertwined with non-combat) is the goal. Avoiding unnecessary initiative rolls is just an optimization for convenience. Initiative should be rolled only when it matters and is therefore interesting*. If it just so happens that your players are dashing in and out of cover and interacting with lots of enemies on each round, it could indeed be the case that initiative is always interesting and that making some initiative rolls every round is the best way to proceed. (Also, some players prefer to roll initiative whenever possible--some people don't like Schrodinger resolutions, like not knowing at the time Rath makes his attack rolls whether or not he is in time to hit Shoalar.) If there are ten gnolls and five of them are shooting at Delsenora and dispersing into skirmish formation and five of them are shooting at Rupert and also dispersing while Rupert casts Conjure Animals and Delsenora casts Fireball, maybe the simplest way to resolve it really is to just have Delsenora and Rath each roll initiative, and roll a handful of initiative dice for the gnolls and count how many of them are before, between, and after Rupert and Delsenora this round.

That probably won't be necessary on subsequent rounds though, because the gnolls will already be dispersed.

* Some of the best moments of dramatic tension in my campaign have centered on initiative rolls: "Is the Death Slaad going to get away with Nox's Robe of the Archmagi, via Plane Shift, before Nox's skeletons can take its last few HP?" We already knew that just barely enough skeletons hit to kill the slaad, but would they be FAST enough? I rolled initiative for the Slaad and had Nox roll initiative for all of his skeletons that hit (because the initiative of the ones that missed doesn't matter)... and IIRC the Slaad rolled a 2, so the Slaad was too slow and got pincushioned by skeleton arrows, and a happy ending was had for Nox.

Initiative rolls for moving behind total cover are sometimes pretty exciting too.