D&D 5E Conversation with NPCs turns into combat

[freudpimp]

I usually just call for initiative when either the players or npc's/monsters do or say something that triggers combat. In PotA, I had the same situation with the players inquiring about the stolen books. when the players wouldn't leave it alone and kept pressing him I said "you see his mocking smile fade as he begins uttering a incantation, role for initiative"

then the combat plays out from there as usual.

 

[Nailen]

I usually just call for initiative when either the players or npc's/monsters do or say something that triggers combat. In PotA, I had the same situation with the players inquiring about the stolen books. when the players wouldn't leave it alone and kept pressing him I said "you see his mocking smile fade as he begins uttering a incantation, role for initiative"

then the combat plays out from there as usual.

OK, do you remember what the PCs who came before him in the initiative roll chose to do?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Role play the conversation. When and if the NPC gets bored and decides to attack, call for initiative at that point. Frame the situation as the NPC has clearly begun casting a spell with hostile intent and go from there. If you want it to be a possible surprise, as in the NPC suddenly shifts from charming to attacking, use the deception/insight roll above to determine surprise, then frame the situation exactly the same way and call for initiative.

Or, if you really want the NPC to go first, just narrate the action and don't look for a way to change how initiative works to fit your preferred outcome. Just narrate the outcome and go from there. I don't like this approach, but it's better than trying to twist initiative into a shape that allows someone deciding to initiate combat an advantage because I guarantee your players will begin to seek this same advantage by, when another conversation with an NPC begins to not look promising, shouting out that they're initiating an attack and expect to go first.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'm envisioning a situation in my PotA campaign session tonight where the PCs are talking to Shoalar Quanderil in the Womford Rats encounter. I've kind of decided that Shoalar will probably get bored of the conversation quite quickly and will cast Tidal Wave at the PCs standing on the dockside.

I'm just wondering how to handle it - I know there's no 'surprise' because they all know each other are there, but I don't really want to open the conversation by saying we roll for initiative, because that hints that combat is imminent.

Should I say something like, "He starts to mutter an incantation", and give the PCs a chance to have a reaction? Perhaps the save that they get against Tidal Wave is their chance to react. And from that point, we roll for initiative.

I want to be fair.. I'm not one of those DMs who seeks to kill the party in every battle.

One of the nice things about running a concurrent initiative variant is that questions like this one become simple. In my case, the answer is: "if the PCs haven't declared another action, such as Readying a spell of their own, then their action is implicitly Delay, which means they automatically lose initiative but get to declare an action after Tidal Wave is resolved." They do not lose a turn, they just go second this round. If they have declared a readied action, and an NPC has too, there may be an initiative contest to see whose readied action gets resolved first.

If the PCs attack an NPC in the middle of a conversation, the exact same rules apply. Everyone who didn't just act still gets a turn, unless they were completely surprised. E.g. if your grandmother suddenly attacked you with a meat cleaver, or if you were reading in a library and werewolves jumped out of the bookshelves and attacked you, you would be psychologically surprised and unready for combat ("code white") and not get to act on round 1. This will not happen when conversing with NPCs known to be dangerous.

 

[Schmoe]

If someone starts combat in the middle of conversation, I've always treated it as an Insight check to avoid being surprised. With an assassin or similar opponent I would use an opposed Deception roll, otherwise a simple DC 10 or so should suffice.

 

[freudpimp]

OK, do you remember what the PCs who came before him in the initiative roll chose to do?

i think the rogue was the only one to beat him in initiative, and he moved away and fired his bow but missed. then the bad guy went and swamped the rest of the players in tidal wave

 

[Nailen]

i think the rogue was the only one to beat him in initiative, and he moved away and fired his bow but missed. then the bad guy went and swamped the rest of the players in tidal wave

Cool.

I'm quite looking forward to the session. And I'm kind of assuming they will then head upriver to Rivergard Keep...

 

[cmad1977]

Why roll extra dice?
1: Have conversation
2: villain monologues a bit.
3: roll initiative


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[jasper]

I'm envisioning a situation in my PotA campaign session tonight where the PCs are talking to Shoalar Quanderil in the Womford Rats encounter. I've kind of decided that Shoalar will probably get bored of the conversation quite quickly and will cast Tidal Wave at the PCs standing on the dockside.

I'm just wondering how to handle it - I know there's no 'surprise' because they all know each other are there, but I don't really want to open the conversation by saying we roll for initiative, because that hints that combat is imminent.

Should I say something like, "He starts to mutter an incantation", and give the PCs a chance to have a reaction? Perhaps the save that they get against Tidal Wave is their chance to react. And from that point, we roll for initiative.

I want to be fair.. I'm not one of those DMs who seeks to kill the party in every battle.

Evil Jasper speaks. " I not saying that you Nailen are evil. But you have killed my minions. Broken my teapot. Spam my grandma with little blue pill ads. Told my dad I was out pass curfew Spit in my milk when you were 5 years. Did not let me copy your homework for English"
Nailen, " Hey that happen Tuesday, and was not my pc!"
Evil Jasper drones on, " You forgot to close the door on the oven so the orc did not gets its pie!'
DM, " Evil jasper goes to cast a spell. Everyone give me init."

 

[Satyrn]

if I did say that he starts to mutter an incantation and then we roll for initiative, what do I do for all the PCs who come before the NPC? They shouldn't react to the spellcasting, because it hasn't happened yet...
Maybe I am overthinking it.

This is what I do.

And for the PCs who win initiative, I narrate them as are acting while the NPC is casting, not before - because despite the turn based system everything is still happening rather simultaneously.

(Actually, any given action in combat is simultaneous with others when it makes sense, or consecutive happening all by itself when that makes sense. Not that it matters very often at the table.)