D&D 5E Conversation with NPCs turns into combat

[FormerlyHemlock]

How is my conjecture that PC's are unavoidably subjected to deadly attacks wrong? Is this not the description of the 5e spell Tidal Wave?

"You conjure up a wave of water that crashes down on an area within range. The area can be up to 30 feet long, up to 10 feet wide, and up to 10 feet tall. Each creature in that area must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failure, a creature takes 4d8 bludgeoning damage and is knocked prone. On a success, a creature takes half as much damage and isn't knocked prone. The water then spreads out across the ground in all directions, extinguishing unprotected flames in its area and within 30 feet of it."

Is 4d8 bludgeoning damage not potentially lethal damage?

(1) No, it's not even close to potentially lethal damage for characters of the level I think we are discussing. If Rath, Rupert, and Delsenora are around 5th level, it simply doesn't matter to whether they take 4d8 bludgeoning damage before or after hitting the other guy back for 60ish HP of damage.

(2) It's not unavoidable. If you are genuinely concerned about being in close quarters with a truly deadly threat, select one or more of: (a) negotiate from a distance or behind total cover instead of close quarters; (b) ready offensive or defensive actions on a predefined trigger; (c) take the Alert feat or a high Int so that you get to declare last every round; (d) leverage Deception to do the aforementioned (especially #2) without the enemy realizing you're doing it, and take a high Insight yourself to prevent the enemy from doing it to you; (e) have allies in hiding (Stealth); (f) be an illusion instead of an actual person (Mislead); (g) prepare defenses such as Aid, Death Ward, and Armor of Agathys to act as insurance against surprises; (h) do something else clever which I the DM haven't prepared for. (Happens all the time.)

But most of all, (a). If you're a party of three 5th level PCs, and a clan of a dozen werewolves wants to parlay with you, do it from horseback from 60' away, or insist on meeting one werewolf alone in a tent with all three PCs present--not on foot in a clearing surrounded by werewolves. That's just dumb. And don't do it unless you have something to gain from parlaying--that is also dumb.

The 5e procedures haven't changed so much from past editions of D&D that those procedures are irrelevant

And yet you keep asking nonsensical things such as "Why in such a world would Greedo stupidly gloat, knowing that all gloaters were giving up their action via an implicit Delay and waiting to be shot?" Answer: they're not giving up their action. It's been a while since I watched Star Wars so I can't say whether Greedo looks like he was Readying an action to shoot Han as soon as Han made a move (in which case Han won the Stealth vs. Perception contest, variation of 2(d) above) or whether he really was just caught flat-footed, but it doesn't matter because D&D isn't a game of one-hit kills like the Star Wars universe--PCs can afford to eat an 8d6 Fireball far more easily than Han Solo can afford to eat a plasma grenade. 5E is more like Star Wars would be if Han had to shoot Greedo ten times in order to knock him out temporarily, and Greedo has to hit Han eleven times to return the favor. In that situation, it doesn't matter who gets the first shot. It matters who gets the tenth/eleventh shots--but getting the first shot in doesn't speed up the tenth shot at all, so there's no gain in shooting first.

If you are in a one-hit-kill situation then see point #2 above: don't put yourself in that situation unless you're prepared for the consequences. (And no, before you jump to another conclusion, that does not mean I wax my players every time they put themselves in that kind of a situation. Only sometimes, depending on roleplaying considerations and the will of the dice.)

It's one thing to make an assumption that rounds implicitly occurred before the start of combat, and quite another to implicitly assume a convenient but illogical action ('Delay') was taken.

You're ----ing your players out of their fair chance of winning the initiative.

I objected because its terrible advice to give to a new player. My language was initially quite moderate. If we can drop this whole pretense that I'm too dull to understand the plain sense of the words you have stated, then any slight bitterness in my words will probably go away as well.

If the players want to declare another action, they can declare another action. They're not being robbed of anything, ever.

As for your increasingly immoderate tone, "bitterness" in your words, any aspersions you feel being cast on your wit came from your imagination, not mine.

 

[Celebrim]

[MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]: Now you are reduced to quibbling. Arguing that in this particular case the 4d8 damage wasn't deadly so the rule is fair in this particular case, neither makes it fair in this case (it just makes it less blatantly unfair) nor proves its fairness in the general case.

The ability of characters to take broad precautions against ambush and sudden attack doesn't make this rule any more fair either, nor does it make it more in accord with the plain reading of the rules. Surely all of those precautions are still available when following the plain rules as well, and they are all surely at least as effective if not much more so.

Nothing you have said explains why you'd ever privilege this procedure over the ordinary rules or why you would want to make this default case. Just roll for initiative as the rules declare. If you are going to run a round by round negotiation, then allow the players to actually declare what they are doing rather than implicitly assuming Delay. And if your motivation for not running it round by round is because you know if you do, they'll be on their toes and explicitly take more reasonable actions, then your motives in your procedure are far from pure and fair.

And yet you keep asking nonsensical things such as "Why in such a world would Greedo stupidly gloat, knowing that all gloaters were giving up their action via an implicit Delay and waiting to be shot?" Answer: they're not giving up their action. It's been a while since I watched Star Wars so I can't say whether Greedo looks like he was Readying an action to shoot Han as soon as Han made a move (in which case Han won the Stealth vs. Perception contest, variation of 2(d) above) or whether he really was just caught flat-footed, but it doesn't matter because D&D isn't a game of one-hit kills like the Star Wars universe--PCs can afford to eat an 8d6 Fireball far more easily than Han Solo can afford to eat a plasma grenade.

Oh this is rich. First, notice that you never actually give any justification for your thesis statement. You just say, "They are not giving up their action", and then you go on to provide no evidence of that assertion at all. In fact, by delaying they are giving up their action. Only after the NPC completes a full action do they then get a chance to act. They are letting the NPC go first. That's giving up there action. The fact that they can act later in the same round doesn't change the fact that they decline to act initially. They are letting the NPC have a free go at them. Greedo, by not shooting immediately, under your procedure of 'implicit delay' is now waiting to be shot.

And the crazy thing is that you know that that is true, because instead of offering evidence for your assertion, "They are not giving up their action.", you proceed to defend that it does not matter that they have given up their action, because the combat is going to take 10 or 11 rounds anyway by which time the advantage of going first is lost. This would be nonsense even if it were true, since the Tidal Wave knocks targets prone, thereby potentially stealing actions in the action economy, increasing the advantage of having gone first and potentially putting the loser of initiative on 'the back foot' the whole combat (especially assuming it was somewhat easily matched). And for the most part, D&D combats - even those in 5e - are not so grindy that they normally go 10 or 11 rounds anyway, as you also admit when you say, "If Rath, Rupert, and Delsenora are around 5th level, it simply doesn't matter to whether they take 4d8 bludgeoning damage before or after hitting the other guy back for 60ish HP of damage." In this case, it may not matter to the PC's that much if they take 4d8 damage twice before making their second action, but it surely matters to the NPC if they take 60ish damage twice before their second action. This combat is not going 10 or 11 rounds anyway, and even in 5e - though it might not be as deadly as some prior editions - we will be able to find situations where it surely matters who goes first and in particular where having the whole party automatically lose initiative the BBEG is a massive advantage to the BBEG compared to the normal procedures of the game.

When I first did the mathematical modelling on going first versus going second by running combats in D&D back in like 10th grade (simple computer programs on a C64 to run thousands of combats) I was blown away by the size of the advantage in going first. See also hitting twice as hard but attacking half as fast - the two aren't balanced.

What this looks like is an DM adopting procedures to ensure NPC antagonists - who normally are the ones to initiate violence in your games - don't go down like chumps.

If the players want to declare another action, they can declare another action. They're not being robbed of anything, ever.

Then let them declare actions, otherwise you are robbing them. Don't adopt implicit Delay actions, ever. If it isn't clear what actions they were taking, just follow the darn rules and roll initiative. Don't force them to Delay in order to talk - they can talk while taking any action that doesn't otherwise employ their mouth.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

[MENTION=6787650]This would be nonsense even if it were true, since the Tidal Wave knocks targets prone, thereby potentially stealing actions in the action economy, increasing the advantage of having gone first and potentially putting the loser of initiative on 'the back foot' the whole combat (especially assuming it was somewhat easily matched). And for the most part, D&D combats - even those in 5e - are not so grindy that they normally go 10 or 11 rounds anyway, as you also admit when you say, "If Rath, Rupert, and Delsenora are around 5th level, it simply doesn't matter to whether they take 4d8 bludgeoning damage before or after hitting the other guy back for 60ish HP of damage." In this case, it may not matter to the PC's that much if they take 4d8 damage twice before making their second action, but it surely matters to the NPC if they take 60ish damage twice before their second action.

Pop quiz, hot shot. Rules test: in the initiative variant I use, if Rath goes after Shoalar on round one, how does that affect Rath's chances of going before Sholar on round two?

There's no point in even discussing anything with you until you learn the rules that are under discussion in this part of the thread.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using EN World mobile app

 

[Nailen]

Wow, I didn't think this discussion would still be going on....