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conversion manual?

Mourn said:
So, the gnome being in the MM means it no longer exists? When did that memo go out?
It may exist. . .but it's not written for use as a PC. They are taking from the PHB a traditional D&D PC race like gnomes, and giving us glorified lizardmen and tieflings. So, are Orc and Kobold PC's also intended then? What about Illithid PC's? At what point can you no longer mine the MM for PC ideas?

Oh, and he didn't lie, and it's very disingenuous to imply that he did. WotC made their statement that conversion was not recommended and not suggested, and Arkhandus. I was about to say the same thing he did when I saw he had already posted it as I remember interpreting WotC's statement in a similar fashion, the same thing you accused him of lying about. Are you saying I would be lying too if I'd said that?
 

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wingsandsword said:
It may exist. . .but it's not written for use as a PC.

Except that it is written for use as a PC in the "Monsters as Races" Appendix.

Oh, and he didn't lie, and it's very disingenuous to imply that he did.

I never said he lied. I said he said something that wasn't true (I'm not assigning him intent, as deception is in the intent), which I assumes from him being misinformed.

WotC made their statement that conversion was not recommended and not suggested, and Arkhandus.

No. Wizards said that characters would benefit from being recreated by concept, rather than a 1:1 conversion document (since 3e's was bunk), and they recommend that you start playing 4th Edition with a 1st-level campaign. Openly admitting the mechanics are different and 1:1 conversion is improbable, and suggesting you try the new system from the beginning is far from insisting that conversion is not possible. It's no different than telling someone they should start reading a series at the first book, so they can understand how it all builds up to the third book.
 

1:1 conversion will not be possible. They said that you can recreate a 4E character so that he closely resembles a 3E character but possible with different feats or a different class altogether, but that is not really a big achievment.

The conversion process to 4E is building a new character from scratch and then give him (or her) the name of your old character.
 


Delta said:

You can't really just convert a character directly from 3e to 4e. We pretended you could do that from 2e to 3e, but that conversion book was pretty well bogus. The fact is, as I explained it a lot at GenCon, that your character isn't what's on your character sheet: your character is the guy in your head. The character sheet is how the guy in your head interacts with the rules of the game. The rules of the game are different, so you'll be creating a new implementation of that character, but the character needn't change much.

Strange how different people get completely different things from the same quote, isn't it?
 

Derren said:
The conversion process to 4E is building a new character from scratch and then give him (or her) the name of your old character.

That's what the 3e document basically did. Since so much was different in 3e, a 1:1 conversion really wasn't possible either.
 

Celebrim said:
"We learned the hard way with 3rd Edition that accurate conversion really doesn't work. Thus, we're encouraging everyone to start at 1st level and learn the new system from the ground up. While you'll certainly be able to reinvent many existing characters with the new system, there's no way a conversion guide could adequately cover the vast array of options that have been published over the lifespan of the game. We'll eventually revisit many favorite parts of the previous edition, and along the way we'll also explore plenty of new territory as well."

Yeah, that's the one I remembered, and I think they've mentioned it another time too. I just don't like trying to search through reams of old threads/posts (without the Search function myself, cuz I can't afford a CS account) every time I want to support a point.


"Encouraging" doesn't mean they're saying they just don't want to bother with a conversion document, it's more like telling us that it'd be a lot of work to try and that they encourage us to just start new so as to avoid all that work (and to avoid bugging them to make a huge-arse conversion document or something).

If it was something that'd be fairly simple, don't you think they'd make up a short conversion PDF? If it was relatively simple, there wouldn't be any reason for them to avoid it, since they know many people would love to have such a document, so they could continue their ongoing campaigns with the characters they've spent so much time developing.

No, they've told us it's best to just start over from level 1 with the new rules.

The only defensible reason why would be that it's impractical to convert most 3E material to 4E without a lot of time or hassle, and that they just don't want to bother with that; they've got to work on the 4th Edition books and the Digital Initiative and all.

And since they're just planning to re-hash and drastically change lots of 3E material eventually for 4E, they'd rather not bother anyway.


Also, I seriously doubt it'll be any easier to convert material from 3E to 4E than it was to convert 2E to 3E. There were very few things to 'convert' between 2E and 3E; some item stats, which wouldn't've taken long to figure out; replacing some spells since it would've taken a long time for all the old ones to be updated for 3E (2E had many spell compendiums and such); and replacing kits/nonweapon proficiencies with the appropriate skills and feats, which usually wouldn't be very hard in most cases.

Only the Player's Option stuff would've likely caused a bit of difficulty in converting, but I recall several options from that material that really would've just been directly handled as feats in 3E, probably because several 3E feats were based on old 2E options.
 

Mourn said:
Because he said something that wasn't true. WotC has never insisted you cannot/should not convert characters from 3e to 4e. They just suggest starting a new campaign from 1st level (the normal starting point for the game), since that's honestly the best way to learn a new game.
Yes, they 'suggest'. Repeatedly. Several different people have 'suggested' the exact same thing. Time after time. Sounds pretty insistant to me.

Main Entry: in·sist
intransitive verb
1: to be emphatic, firm, or resolute about something intended, demanded, or required <they insist on going>

transitive verb
2: to maintain in a persistent or positive manner <insisted that the story was true>

Absence of the word does not indicate lack of intent.
 

I think some concepts simply wont convert. Take the recent "Fearless" article which basically confirms no Save or Die effects.

How does one "convert" something which simply doesn't exist anymore? If that video with the beholder and the Saving Throw hint with the Pit Fiend were good hints, it means that save or die is more of a "3 strikes you're out" deal
 
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AllisterH said:
I think some concepts simply wont convert. Take the recent "Fearless" article which basically confirms no Save or Die effects.

How does one "convert" something which simply doesn't exist anymore? If that video with the beholder and the Saving Throw hint with the Pit Fiend were good hints, it means that save or die is more of a "3 strikes you're out" deal
Hey look, statement of impossibility, rhetorical question, refutation of impossibility.

Not a designer or a playtester.
Finger of Nerfing (Death, Mind-Affecting, Pineapple)
Wizard 17 wand power-word
Make an intelligence attack against the fortitude of a single living foe. If you miss, deal 1d8 points of necrotic nerf damage against that foe. If you hit, deal 3d8 points of necrotic damage to the foe. That foe is now 'nerfed'. He takes 15 points of necrotic nerf damage at the beginning of each round. He may make a save to (permanently) reduce this damage by 5; thus, it takes 3 successful saves to remove this effect entirely.


See? A bit of damage now, a lot of damage later, and a save-or-die-soon that would be the pride of any necromancer. Similarly, consider (for those who absolutely have to just drop their foe in the foe's tracks):

Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Death (Save-Or-Die)
Wizard 21 wand at-will
Make an intelligence attack against the will of a single bloodied living foe with level 10 less than yours. If you hit, kill them.
DM Note: This is an unfair spell, thus the attached "Save-Or-Die" descriptor. While you can use this on your players, it's best used as a tool to build dread. You could also drop a red dragon on their heads, or amoebic dysentery in their meals at the inn. Frankly, this is a great spell for any wizard to have, because with it they can lord it over mooks.
Try to avoid making your players feel like mooks.
 

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