Converting Epic Level Creatures

[Cleon]

well alli have is BOVD and most of the demonlords ranged from 26-40 hd in that one, so HD in the 30 ish range. Im ok with An Obryth.

Here's a handy bunch of comparisons:

Baalzebul, Lord of the Seventh [Arch-Devil]
Book of Vile Darkness: Huge; CR 29; HD 38 (665 hp); AC 47, touch 22, flat-footed 45; SR 41; Abilities Str 41, Dex 15, Con 36, Int 30, Wis 29, Cha 27
Fiendish Codex II: Huge, CR 23; HD 30 (495 hp); AC 47, touch 9, flat-footed 46; SR 31; Abilities Str 39, Dex 13, Con 34, Int 28, Wis 27, Cha 25

Baphomet, Prince of Beasts
Fiendish Codex I: Huge, CR 20; HD 24 (372 hp); AC 38, touch 11, flat-footed 38 [should be touch 12, flat-footed 34]; SR 31; Abilities Str 33, Dex 16, Con 33, Int 18, Wis 26, Cha 20
Dragon Magazine #341 : Large; CR 24; HD 32 (560 hp); AC 39, touch 13, flat-footed 39 [should be 35]; SR 38; Abilities Str 30, Dex 18, Con 36, Int 20, Wis 28, Cha 22

Dagon, Prince of the Darkened Depths
Fiendish Codex I: Gargantuan; CR 22; HD 25 (462 hp); AC 42, touch 7, flat-footed 41; SR 33; Abilities Str 36, Dex 12, Con 38, Int 22, Wis 25, Cha 16
Dragon Magazine #349 : Colossal; CR 30; HD 33 (709 hp); AC 50, touch 4, flat-footed 48; SR 48; Abilities Str 46, Dex 14, Con 44, Int 24, Wis 27, Cha 20

Demogorgon, Prince of Demons
Book of Vile Darkness: Huge; CR 30; HD 39 (565 hp); AC 47, touch 25, flat-footed 39; SR 42; Abilities Str 28, Dex 27, Con 31, Int 31, Wis 29, Cha 30
Fiendish Codex I: Huge; CR 23; HD 27 (499 hp); AC 43, touch 16, flat-footed 35; SR 34; Abilities Str 38, Dex 27, Con 38, Int 26, Wis 22, Cha 28
Dragon Magazine #357 : Huge; CR 33; HD 37 (869 hp); AC 59, touch 23, flat-footed 44; SR 46; Abilities Str 42, Dex 32, Con 46, Int 30, Wis 26, Cha 32

Elemental Princes of Evil
Cryonax, Prince of Elemental Evil Cold
Dragon Magazine #347 : Large; CR 22; HD 42 (525 hp); AC 42, touch 26, flat-footed 31; SR 31; Abilities Str 39, Dex 32, Con 27, Int 22, Wis 23, Cha 22
Imix, Prince of Elemental Evil Fire
Dragon Magazine #347 : Huge; CR 22; HD 42 (483 hp); AC 41, touch 28, flat-footed 28; SR 33; Abilities Str 35, Dex 37, Con 24, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 23
Ogrémoch, Prince of Elemental Evil Earth
Dragon Magazine #347 : Large; CR 24; HD 45 (877 hp); AC 45, touch 18, flat-footed 42; SR 34; Abilities Str 48, Dex 16, Con 40, Int 20, Wis 23, Cha 21
Olhydra, Princess of Elemental Evil Water
Dragon Magazine #347 : Huge, CR 22; HD 42 (567 hp); AC 41, touch 23, flat-footed 34; SR 30; Abilities Str 41, Dex 25, Con 29, Int 24, Wis 26, Cha 25

Fraz-Urb'lu, Prince of Deception
Fiendish Codex I: Huge; CR 21; HD 24 (420 hp); AC 37, touch 12, flat-footed 33; SR 32; Abilities Str 30, Dex 18, Con 36, Int 22, Wis 19, Cha 25
Dragon Magazine #333 : Huge; CR 28; HD 34 (629 hp); AC 41, touch 18, flat-footed 36; SR 36; Abilities Str 39, Dex 20, Con 39, Int 24, Wis 23, Cha 27

Graz'zt, The Dark Prince
Book of Vile Darkness: Large; CR 24; HD 36 (486 hp); AC 43, touch 25, flat-footed 33; SR 38; Abilities Str 26, Dex 30, Con 28, Int 35, Wis 22, Cha 39
Fiendish Codex I: Large; CR 22; HD 27 (445 hp); AC 54, touch 12, flat-footed 51; SR 33; Abilities Str 27, Dex 28, Con 35, Int 33, Wis 20, Cha 38

Juiblex, The Faceless Lord
Book of Vile Darkness: Large; CR 20; HD 26 (585 hp); AC 37, touch 22, flat-footed 34; SR 30; Abilities Str 39, Dex 16, Con 47, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 20
Fiendish Codex I: Large; CR 19; HD 21 (346 hp); AC 31, touch 11, flat-footed 29; SR 30; Abilities Str 30, Dex 14, Con 34, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 18

Kostchtchie, Prince of Wrath
Fiendish Codex I: Huge; CR 21; HD 23 (425 hp); AC 41, touch 9, flat-footed 40; SR 32; Abilities Str 40, Dex 12, Con 38, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 23
Dragon Magazine #345 : Huge; CR 28; HD 30 (615 hp); AC 46, touch 14, flat-footed 44; SR 41; Abilities Str 44, Dex 14, Con 40, Int 20, Wis 22, Cha 25

Malcanthet, Queen of the Succubi
Fiendish Codex I: Medium; CR 21; HD 25 (412 hp); AC 42, touch 35, flat-footed 32; SR 32; Abilities Str 24, Dex 30, Con 34, Int 24, Wis 28, Cha 40
Dragon Magazine #353 : Medium; CR 28; HD 33 (429 hp); AC 50, touch 38, flat-footed 39; SR 41; Abilities Str 26, Dex 32, Con 36, Int 26, Wis 30, Cha 44

Obox-Ob, Prince of Vermin
Fiendish Codex I: Huge; CR 22; HD 26 (455 hp); AC 41, touch 11, flat-footed 38; SR 33; Abilities Str 34, Dex 17, Con 36, Int 23, Wis 24, Cha 27

Orcus, Prince of the Undead
Book of Vile Darkness: Large; CR 28; HD 37 (758 hp); AC 47, touch 27, flat-footed 40; SR 41; Abilities Str 39, Dex 25, Con 43, Int 29, Wis 22, Cha 21
Fiendish Codex I: Large; CR 22; HD 26 (455 hp); AC 48, touch 20, flat-footed 42; SR 35; Abilities Str 35, Dex 23, Con 37, Int 27, Wis 20, Cha 19

Pale Night
Fiendish Codex I: Medium; CR 21; HD 24 (372 hp); AC 36, touch 36, flat-footed 22; SR 32; Abilities Str —, Dex 38, Con 32, Int 25, Wis 28, Cha 35

Pazuzu, Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms
Fiendish Codex I: Medium; CR 22; HD 27 (445 hp); AC 43, touch 23, flat-footed 30; SR ; Abilities Str 28, Dex 36, Con 35, Int 28, Wis 24, Cha 33
Dragon Magazine #329 : Medium; CR 29; HD 38 (551 hp); AC 46, touch 32, flat-footed 32; SR 42; Abilities Str 26, Dex 38, Con 31, Int 30, Wis 26, Cha 35

Yeenoghu, Prince of Gnolls
Book of Vile Darkness: Large; CR ; HD ( hp); AC 42, touch 24, flat-footed 33; SR 32; Abilities Str 37, Dex 28, Con 32, Int 26, Wis 25, Cha 25
Fiendish Codex I: Large; CR 20; HD 24 (372 hp); AC 45, touch 17, flat-footed 37; SR 31; Abilities Str 30, Dex 26, Con 32, Int 24, Wis 30, Cha 23

Zuggtmoy, Queen of Fungi
Fiendish Codex I: Large; CR 21; HD 26 (429 hp); AC 41, touch 11, flat-footed 39; SR 32; Abilities Str 30, Dex 14, Con 34, Int 24, Wis 22, Cha 18
Dragon Magazine #337 : Large; CR 25; HD 35 (542 hp); AC 41, touch 11, flat-footed 39; SR 33; Abilities Str 36, Dex 14, Con 33, Int 26, Wis 24, Cha 20

 

[Cleon]

Here's a handy bunch of comparisons:

Hmm, it looks like the Fiendish Codex versions of Dagon, Obox-ob and Zuggtmoy and the Book of Vile Darkness version of Juiblex are the closest in HD and general bodyform to Ythog-Nthlei:

Dagon, Prince of the Darkened Depths
Fiendish Codex I: Gargantuan; CR 22; HD 25 (462 hp); AC 42, touch 7, flat-footed 41; SR 33; Abilities Str 36, Dex 12, Con 38, Int 22, Wis 25, Cha 16

Juiblex, The Faceless Lord
Book of Vile Darkness: Large; CR 20; HD 26 (585 hp); AC 37, touch 22, flat-footed 34; SR 30; Abilities Str 39, Dex 16, Con 47, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 20

Obox-Ob, Prince of Vermin
Fiendish Codex I: Huge; CR 22; HD 26 (455 hp); AC 41, touch 11, flat-footed 38; SR 33; Abilities Str 34, Dex 17, Con 36, Int 23, Wis 24, Cha 27

Zuggtmoy, Queen of Fungi
Fiendish Codex I: Large; CR 21; HD 26 (429 hp); AC 41, touch 11, flat-footed 39; SR 32; Abilities Str 30, Dex 14, Con 34, Int 24, Wis 22, Cha 18

 

[Nookie]

So for gargantuan i think 30 Hd is reasonable. He seems like a strong sort of demonlord. He has really high 1E HP for example most demonlords had something like 100-150 hp and this dude has 208 so im ok with makeing him strongish.

 

[Cleon]

So for gargantuan i think 30 Hd is reasonable. He seems like a strong sort of demonlord. He has really high 1E HP for example most demonlords had something like 100-150 hp and this dude has 208 so im ok with makeing him strongish.

I'd rather keep it at 26 HD like the original.

It's notable that the original description makes no mention of any magical powers apart from its eyebeam and bite.

Demon Lords tend to have spell-like abilities, so why doesn't Ythlog-Nthlei.

Maybe its other powers have been suppressed by the spells that imprisoned it beneath the temple, and it needs some time to recover them?

Speaking of unnatural powers, I need to add the energy draining to its mace.

Oh, and we'll need to stat up its Priests as well.

 

[Nookie]

ok so 26 hd with a higher con than? More of a physical demonlord. i still think he should have the staples like maybe teleport unholy blight just really common SLA. Maybe the fact he doesn't have any might have something to do with his spell reflection.

I donot think we should Just say he has dominate person a Mind control poison seems interesting and cool and just calling it a SLA is kinda lazy IMO.

 

[Cleon]

ok so 26 hd with a higher con than? More of a physical demonlord. i still think he should have the staples like maybe teleport unholy blight just really common SLA. Maybe the fact he doesn't have any might have something to do with his spell reflection.

I donot think we should Just say he has dominate person a Mind control poison seems interesting and cool and just calling it a SLA is kinda lazy IMO.

Hmm, there's no mention of Ythog-Nthlei having any SLAs, but there is a slight implication it has some kind of dimensional travel.

From "Important Note" before Area 19
"Exactly 10 turns after the characters descend the spiral staircase and enter the alien base, the evil priests of Ythog Nthlei will succeed in freeing their master. The only way to prevent them from attaining their goal is to kill them before the end of 10 turns. If they succeed, Ythog Nthlei will instantly move to Room 31 with his treasure:"

From Area 31
"This appears to be the throne room of the complex. Directly in front of the party there is a strange type of chair, clearly made for some inhuman creature several times the size of a man...

If Ythog-Nthlei has escaped his bondage, he will appear on the throne and attack the party as it enters".

It's roughly 450 feet from the sarcophagous Ythog-Nthlei is trapped in at Area 22 to its throne room in Area 31, yet the Dark Prince can "instantly move" from one to the other. It'd take him 4 rounds to travel between the two at his listed 12" speed.

Also, the description makes no mention of Ythog-Nthlei being visible on the throne - does he "appear" on it (out of nowhere?) when the PCs intrude, oe is he just lounging there are the wording is sloggy?

If the former, Ythog-Nthlei is either able to turn invisible or ethereal, or it somehow can know that there are intruders in its throne room (scry maybe?) and dimension door or greater teleport to the throne.

How about we stat up the "standard" Ythog-Nthlei with appropriate SLAs and Su powers, and then add a subentry for a weakened Ythog-Nthlei who has just been released from its imprisonment and has not yet regained its Awesome Eldritch Powers?

 

[Cleon]

I donot think we should Just say he has dominate person a Mind control poison seems interesting and cool and just calling it a SLA is kinda lazy IMO.

I was going to propose some kind of Wisdom-poisoning (Su) poison, and if the victim's Wis drops to 0 they become thralls of Ythog-Nthlei. The description will probably mention it works in a similar fashion to dominate monster, but it won't just be the SLA.

 

[Cleon]

Anyhow, before we get too far arguing about the special abilities, I think we'd better sort out the basics first.

To start with, I'm not decided we should make it an actual Demon Lord. There's many references to Evil, but no mention of Chaotic Evil. There's a sacrificial altar that can summon minor demons in Area 25, but there's also a pyramid in Area 23 that can command "a lesser devil of random type", and Area 28 has an Ice Devil and two Horned Devils as guardians.

The guardian statues in Area 29 resemble Mind Flayers, who are Lawful Evil in alignment.

So, we've got both Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil monsters present, possibly with more LE than CE, together with numerous vague mentions of "evil".

Maybe we should make Ythog-Nthlei a Neutral Evil monster?

Furthermore, all the lovecraftian flimflam suggests Ythog-Nthlei might have originated from (or be linked to) the Far Realms.

Overall, I think it best to leave it vague as to just what Ythog-Nthlei's nature and affiliations are, apart from it being Evil.

 

[Nookie]

So he likely has teleport or dimeension door. (or both)

I would be more ok with Less SLA if he were some sort of Lesser Cthulian great old one type of thing. Mind flayers lend themselves to this theory as well.

Or maybe he is a demonlord whos cult uses the pyramid to Mind control devils? Could have been LE devils and whatnot that imprisoned him as well.

So either demonlord or Far realms paragon leans themselves towards chaotic evil.

 

[Cleon]

So he likely has teleport or dimeension door. (or both)

I would be more ok with Less SLA if he were some sort of Lesser Cthulian great old one type of thing. Mind flayers lend themselves to this theory as well.

Or maybe he is a demonlord whos cult uses the pyramid to Mind control devils? Could have been LE devils and whatnot that imprisoned him as well.

So either demonlord or Far realms paragon leans themselves towards chaotic evil.

I'm leaning towards "Minor Lovecraftian Horror" as a model.

Although some of the 3E Obyrith are pretty much "Lovecraftian Horrors" as they stand currently, so I'd still leave that option open.

Maybe we should cover both bases and have it be an Obyrith that has ventured Into the Far Realms.