Converting Oriental Adventures creatures

[Cleon]

Updating The Keeper of the Key Working Draft.

While editing, I noticed a wee problem.

The Keeper's Martial Training has "gains an dodge bonus to AC equal to its Intelligence bonus" which is of limited use when your Intelligence is 10!

How about cutting that bit out? It already has the Monk's Wisdom bonus-based AC bonus.

Alternatively, we could change it to a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus?

 

[Cleon]

The Keeper's Martial Training has "gains an dodge bonus to AC equal to its Intelligence bonus" which is of limited use when your Intelligence is 10!

Also, it should be "a" rather than "an" dodge bonus. Better check the other Swords don't have that typo!

…yup, the error's in the Shadow Walker and Screaming Child too.

The typo is easily fixed been corrected, but I'm thinking it should be an insight bonus rather than a dodge bonus to (a) match the other Martial Training bonuses and (b) improve its flat-footed AC.

Dammit, I've just noticed that the General doesn't have its +1 insight bonus in its AC line.

Also, we gave the Veiled Maidens a Charisma-based deflection bonus but forgot to specify it in the description!

Hmm, alternatively we could give the Keeper the other Swords' "gains an insight bonus to AC equal to its Wisdom bonus" Martial Training ability and cut out the Monk level AC bonus in favour of armour since Sohei were armoured warrior-monks.

Upon reflection, I prefer that solution.

If I remember the ages ago when we discussed the target Armour Classes for the various swords we decided on AC 21 for the Keeper, since the original's AC 3 was one worse than the Reaper and General who both had AC 3 (which we interpreted as AC 22 for out conversion.

So I suggest we make the Armour Classes:

The Reaper Armor Class (No Change): 22 (+4 Dex, +2 insight, +6 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 18

The Veiled Maidens Armor Class (SQ Addition): 18 (+4 Dex, +4 deflection), touch 18, flat-footed 14
add Silken Protection (Ex): As long as a Veiled Maiden holds a piece of silk at least a yard long it gains a deflection bonus to AC equal to its Charisma bonus.

The General Armor Class (add insight, reduce breastplate to +1): 22 (+3 Dex, +1 insight, +7 +1 mithral breastplate, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 19

The Shadow Walker Armor Class (change dodge to insight): 23 or 24* (+3 Dex, +3 monk bonus, +2 insight, bracers of armor +2, +1* shield, +3 natural), touch 18, flat-footed 20 or 21*
*when using Two-Weapon Defense

The Paper Warrior Armor Class (No Change): 19 (+3 Dex, +4 monk bonus, +2 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 16

The Screaming Child Armor Class (change dodge to insight): 16 (+3 Dex, +3 dodge), touch 16, flat-footed 13

The Keeper of the Keys Armor Class (see note above): 21 (+3 Dex, +2 insight, +4 mithral shirt, +2 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 18

 

[Cleon]

[BLUE]
Spells: The Keeper of the Keys has the spellcasting ability of a 7th level cleric with the ### and ### domains, including an evil cleric's spontaneous casting ability to convert prepared spells into inflict spells.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/5+1/4+1/2+1/1+1; save DC 12 + spell level):
0—one, two, three, four, five, six;
1st—oneᴰ, two, three, four, five, six;
2nd—oneᴰ, two, three, four, five;
3rd—oneᴰ, two, three;
4th—oneᴰ, two.
Domain spell.
[black]

Spells: The Keeper of the Keys has the spellcasting ability of a 7th level cleric, including an evil cleric's spontaneous casting ability to convert prepared spells into inflict spells.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/5/4/2/1; save DC 12 + spell level):
0—one, two, three, four, five, six;
1st—one, two, three, four, five;
2nd—one, two, three, four;
3rd—one, two;
4th—one.

Upon reflection, I'm cutting the spellcasting to 6th level cleric without domains so its highest spells are 3rd level like the original monster.

These are supposed to be martial opponents more than spellcasters, and we've got a couple of more magic focused Swords already.

We can always raise the cleric casting back up to 7th if we think it needs more juice, but I'd rather just enhance the combat special abilities.

 

[Cleon]

Hmm, also why is The General's Kiai ability (Su)? Wouldn't (Ex) make more sense as it's a ki ability?

 

[freyar]

Ki Frenzy makes good sense. On ki in general: I'd rather make all of them Su abilities. Things like the ki push from the Paper Warrior really look magical to me.

Your AC suggestions all seem fine to me.

6th level cleric casting with no domains seems ok to me, too.

Want to work on the frenzy or the chimes next?

 

[Cleon]

Ki Frenzy makes good sense. On ki in general: I'd rather make all of them Su abilities. Things like the ki push from the Paper Warrior really look magical to me.

Does it matter enough to you that I should change Ki Push in the Posted Version and the one in the Creature Catalog Download?

If I'm changing all those Armour Classes it'd be easy enough to amend a few (Su) and (Ex) tags at the same time.

In 3E Extraordinary Abilities include a lot of things that are basically impossible in the real world, so I'm not that bothered about it seeming "magical", I'm more concerned about it seeming consistent, and Ki abilities in general are (Ex).

Your AC suggestions all seem fine to me.

Sadly, I agree. I'll hold off on editing in the new versions until we agree on the Ki powers issue.

6th level cleric casting with no domains seems ok to me, too.

Want to work on the frenzy or the chimes next?

Frenzy I guess, since we're talking Ki powers at the moment.

Besides, "Wind Chimes" comes after "Ki Frenzy" alphabetically. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!

 

[Cleon]

Also, it should be "a" rather than "an" dodge bonus. Better check the other Swords don't have that typo!

…yup, the error's in the Shadow Walker and Screaming Child too.

The typo is easily fixed been corrected, but I'm thinking it should be an insight bonus rather than a dodge bonus to (a) match the other Martial Training bonuses and (b) improve its flat-footed AC.

Dammit, I've just noticed that the General doesn't have its +1 insight bonus in its AC line.

Also, we gave the Veiled Maidens a Charisma-based deflection bonus but forgot to specify it in the description!

Hmm, alternatively we could give the Keeper the other Swords' "gains an insight bonus to AC equal to its Wisdom bonus" Martial Training ability and cut out the Monk level AC bonus in favour of armour since Sohei were armoured warrior-monks.

Upon reflection, I prefer that solution.

If I remember the ages ago when we discussed the target Armour Classes for the various swords we decided on AC 21 for the Keeper, since the original's AC 3 was one worse than the Reaper and General who both had AC 3 (which we interpreted as AC 22 for out conversion.

So I suggest we make the Armour Classes:

The Reaper Armor Class (No Change): 22 (+4 Dex, +2 insight, +6 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 18

The Veiled Maidens Armor Class (SQ Addition): 18 (+4 Dex, +4 deflection), touch 18, flat-footed 14
add Silken Protection (Ex): As long as a Veiled Maiden holds a piece of silk at least a yard long it gains a deflection bonus to AC equal to its Charisma bonus.

The General Armor Class (add insight, reduce breastplate to +1): 22 (+3 Dex, +1 insight, +7 +1 mithral breastplate, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 19

The Shadow Walker Armor Class (change dodge to insight): 23 or 24* (+3 Dex, +3 monk bonus, +2 insight, bracers of armor +2, +1* shield, +3 natural), touch 18, flat-footed 20 or 21*
*when using Two-Weapon Defense

The Paper Warrior Armor Class (No Change): 19 (+3 Dex, +4 monk bonus, +2 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 16

The Screaming Child Armor Class (change dodge to insight): 16 (+3 Dex, +3 dodge), touch 16, flat-footed 13

The Keeper of the Keys Armor Class (see note above): 21 (+3 Dex, +2 insight, +4 mithral shirt, +2 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 18

Updating The Reaper Working Draft.
Updating The Veiled Maiden Working Draft.
Updating The General Working Draft.*
Updating The Shadow Walker Working Draft.
Updating The Paper Warrior Working Draft.
Updating The Screaming Child Working Draft.**
Updating The Keeper of the Key Working Draft.

*Dang it! A minor correction: I forgot to change the previous draft of the General's +7 armour bonus (from its +2 mithral breastplate) to the +6 armour of a +1 breastplate.

**Double dang it! I also forgot to change the "+3 dodge" in the Screaming Child's AC line to "+3 insight".

The actual Armour Class values in the previous post are correct, including touch and flat-footed ACs.

EDIT: I also updated the Ninja Spirit Shadow so its "+2 Wis" AC bonus became "+2 monk bonus" in order to match the above formatting.

 

[freyar]

The monk's Ki Strike is Su, and surely that's the prototype Ki ability. I don't have access to OA, so I'll have to take your word for the other WotC Ki abilities. But the ones we have really read much more like Su than Ex to me. If you're making other edits, I guess I'd rather switch them.

For the frenzy, the original says it gives "+1 more to hit damage"; would that be "to hit and damage" perhaps? If so, it looks a lot like haste plus the deflect arrows feat and maybe a couple other bonuses (like the other saves and a damage bonus). Or I could see the argument that the 3.X version should just be haste and deflect arrows. What do you think?

 

[Cleon]

The monk's Ki Strike is Su, and surely that's the prototype Ki ability. I don't have access to OA, so I'll have to take your word for the other WotC Ki abilities. But the ones we have really read much more like Su than Ex to me. If you're making other edits, I guess I'd rather switch them.

Well not that many 3E Oriental Adventure classes have ki abilities, unlike the 1E version where each class has its own ki power, sometimes in different levels.

That said, some of the 1E powers are ported into 3E but just don't have "ki" in the names.

Frustratingly, some of the powers don't have types in 3E - the Wu Jen's Sudden Action for example doesn't have (Ex) or (Su), for example. Also, some of the assignments don't make any sense to me - like why is a Eunuch Warlock's Mighty Spells an Extraordinary ability. It affects spells and is somehow nonmagical?

Let's run through the book.

Core Classes (3E Oriental Adventures)

• Samurai - the Ki Shout and Great Ki Shout feat mentioned as a Bonus Feat option, that's.
• Sohei - Ki Frenzy (Ex or Su not listed).
• Wu Jen - Sudden Action (Ex or Su not listed).

Prestige Classes (3E Oriental Adventures)

• Henshin Mystic - Ki Strike (Su).
• Iaijutsu Master - flavour text has "harness their ki energy to strike with blinding speed and devastating power" but ALL of their class powers are (Ex) and don't mention ki in their descriptions.
• Ninja Spy - flavour text mentions "strange ki powers" but only Ki Breath (Ex) specifically mentions ki.
• Singh Rager - gets Great Ki Shout feat. Roaring Strike (Ex) allows free action use of the Ki Shout feat.
• Weapon Master (Kensei) - flavour about seeking "perfection of ki" in mastery of a melee weapon. Have Ki Damage (Ex), Ki Critical (Ex or Su not listed)* and Ki Whirlwind Attack (Ex).
   * Ki Critical just gives the Improved Critical feat for free or boost an existing Improved Critical's threat range, which sounds (Ex) to me.

And that's all of them!

So we've only got one (Su) specifically typed, the Ki Strike, which is the same as the Monk's ability. Everything else is either untyped or (Ex).

The Ninja Spy does have a bunch of (Su) abilities, namely Acrobatics, Leap of the Clouds, Hide in Plain Sight, Water Walk, Thousand Faces, Poison Immunity and Abundant Step.

Some of those are presumably the "strange ki powers" the flavour text mentions.

So the 3E book has a mixture of both (Ex) and (Su).

Let's see, we have:

Seven Swords (3E Enworld Conversions)

• The General - Kiai (Su) - I'm OK keeping this Supernatural, mostly due to the stunning effect.
• The Screaming Child - Sudden Action (Ex or Su not listed) - might as well leave that untyped to match the 3E version.
• The Paper Warrior - Ki Push (Ex), Ki Resilience (Ex) and Ki Speed (Ex) - I'm fine making Ki Push (Su) but would keep the others (Ex).

Ki Speed is similar to a Singh Rager extraordinary ability, incidentally:

Swiftness of the Lioness (Ex): When she reaches 7th level, a singh rager can act as if under the effects of a haste spell for a total of 1 round per class level per day. These rounds need not be consecutive.

I like that "These rounds need not be consecutive," so how about incorporating that into the Paper Warrior's Ki Speed?

Proposed change:

Ki Push (Su): As a standard action, the Paper Warrior can point a finger and direct ki power at a single opponent within a range of 10 feet. The Paper Warrior makes a +8 ranged touch attack, and if the ki power hits the opponent must succeed at a DC 16 Fortitude save or be hurled 10 feet away from the Paper Warrior and fall prone, taking 1d6 points of damage.​

​

Ki Speed (Ex): The Paper Warrior can muster its inner power to move with superhuman speed, acting as if under the effects of a haste spell for a total of 5 rounds per day. These rounds need not be consecutive. This ability modifies the Paper Warrior's statistics to the following:​

Incidentally, Ki Shout is quite different in 3E from the 1E samurai ability - it can cause the shaken condition in nearby opponents, while Great Ki Shout can cause the panicked condition. Since it's a feat it doesn't specify whether it's an (Ex) or (Su) effect.

 

[Cleon]

For the frenzy, the original says it gives "+1 more to hit damage"; would that be "to hit and damage" perhaps? If so, it looks a lot like haste plus the deflect arrows feat and maybe a couple other bonuses (like the other saves and a damage bonus). Or I could see the argument that the 3.X version should just be haste and deflect arrows. What do you think?

You would be correct:

Yes, that's the 3rd level power of a 1E Sohei:

At 3d level the sohei, through religious training and practice, can focus his ki power. Knowing that he is among the chosen, this fills his body with berserk energy and disdain for his own life. This condition last for one turn and can be done once per day. While in this state the sohei gains one extra attack per round, improves his Armor Class by 1, increases his movement by 3", gains an additional +1 on to hit, damage, and saving throw dice rolls, and can dodge or deflect missile weapons by making a successful saving throw versus breath weapon.

The 3E version is basically a variant of Barbarian Rage:

Sohei (3E Oriental Adventures)
Ki Frenzy: Starting at 1st level, a sohei gains the ability to focus her ki power into a frenzy of berserk energy. In this frenzied state, she temporarily gains +2 to Strength and +2 to Dexterity. Her speed increases by 10 feet, and she can choose to make a flurry of blows with a full attack action in melee, making one extra attack per round while suffering a –2 penalty on every attack.
 While in a ki frenzy, a sohei cannot use skills or abilities that require patience or concentration, such as moving silently or casting spells. (She cannot use any class skills in a frenzy.) She can use any feat she might have except for Expertise, item creation feats, metamagic feats, and Skill Focus (if it's tied to a skill that requires patience or concentration). A ki frenzy lasts for a number of rounds equal to three + the sohei's Constitution modifier. The sohei may prematurely end the frenzy voluntarily. At the end of the frenzy, the sohei is fatigued (–2 to Strength, –2 to Dexterity, can't charge or run) for the duration of that encounter. The sohei can only enter a frenzy once per encounter, and only a certain number of times per day (determined by level). Entering a frenzy takes no time itself, but the sohei can only do it during her action, not in response to somebody else's action.

That's missing some of the tricks from the 1E original, such as the missile avoidance.

Also, being undead, the Keeper wouldn't be bothered by the fatigue of the 3E version and it does not have a Constitution modifier to determine the duration.

So what do you fancy, some combination of the two versions?