Converting prehistoric animals

[demiurge1138]

For hit dice, yes I say 20 is too low. The original had 30 right?

Yes, but the seismosaurus (the biggest and strongest of the sauropods) has 32 in MMII. So increasing them back to their original 1e number isn't the best way to go. An average of around 23-25 would probably work (since the diplodocus and brachiosaurus are larger aka more HD than the apatosaurus).

Demiurge out.

 

[Zaster]

A persistent theme here is that progression is always going to make hash out of any attempt to portray these beasts realistically. I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Progression on the Seismosaurus is: 33-64 (Colossal). So Seismo is capped at double his base HD, not the usual 3X. Weird like a beard, but I checked the update booklet and this hasn't changed.

Even if we go the same route with Apatosaurus, then Demiurge's conversion still caps out at 40HD, which overlaps Seismo by quite a bit. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it, since its an unavoidable quirk of progression, and since HD take into account overall fighting ability as well as mass.

Even if we do Brachiosaurus later, I wouldn't worry about having to put him within a few HD of Seismosaurus. Brach wasn't completely out of Seismo's league in terms of mass anyway.

So personally, I wouldn't worry about bringing Apatosaurus in say 2 to 4 HD larger than Urge's 20D. But I can see the argument both ways.

As for the hypersonic tail snap, I like it too. It will make Apatosaurus something more than just a shrimpy seismo.

 

[BOZ]

size =/= HD either.

20, IMO, is way too little. 30 might be too much though... i'll have to get a moment to compare what the other dinos' HDs were in previous editions, two what they are now to make a real determination here.

 

[Wippit Guud]

20, IMO, is way too little. 30 might be too much though...

Well, that's easy then, split the difference, 25 HD

 

[BOZ]

if i don't come up with a better answer in a day or two, then 25 it is.

 

[BOZ]

Comparing 1E MM dino Hit Dice to 3.5 MM, we get these:

Elasmosaurus: 15 / 10
Triceratops: 16 / 16
Tyrannosaurus: 18 / 18

And 1E MM2:

Deionychus: 4 / 4

So, there was some decrease present, but not a whole lot. Therefore, I don’t want to do a whole lot of reduction with the other dinos. I will support sticking with the OD&D version’s 26 HD though (see below).


2E stats:

Brontosaurus
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any swamp
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Nil

NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 30
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Crush (4d10 or 5d10)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESITANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (70’ long)
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE: 22,000

Brontosaurus (apatosaurus)

The “thunder lizard” is a 40-ton plant-eater found near marshes and takes. The creature spends much of its time in shallow water to support its bulk (and because food is plentiful there), but never moves to deep water because the increase in pressure makes it impossible for the tremendous dinosaur to breathe.

Apatosaurus ignores small things, but it is prone to step on anything in its way (causing 4d10 points of damage).

The body of the brontosaur is 65 feet long, but the tiny head is less than two feet of that-a man with the same dimensions would stand six feet tall, but have a head only two inches long! The brontosaurus tips the scale at a mere 30 tons, rather light for a sauropod.

The front legs of the brontosaurus are shorter than those in the rear, like all sauropods except the brachiosaurus. This configuration enables sauropods to get up on their back feet to reach the topmost leaves of a tree. The brontosaurus. could also use this ability to- fight against its principal enemy, the allosaurus. The thunder lizard could tilt itself up on its long back legs, then come crashing down onto its enemy to inflict 5d10 points of damage.

The brontosaurus's tail can be whipped, causing 1d6 points of damage to any foe close enough.


OD&D:

Brotosaurus
Armor Class: 5
Hit Dice: 26
Move: 60' (20')
Attacks: 1 bite/1 tail
Damage: 2-12/3-18
No. Appearing: 0 (1-3)
Save As: Fighter: 13
Morale: 8
Treasure Type: Nil
Alignment: Neutral

A brontosaurus is one of the largest of all dinosaurs. It has a massive body with a small head, long neck, and a strong, tapering tail. The creature is 65' to 75' long and weighs more than 30 tons.

A brontosaurus is so heavy that it needs to spend most of its time in water, so that the water helps support its weight. If only its neck shows above water, the brontosaurus may be mistaken for a plesiosaur or sea serpent. This dinosaur eats plants, and can only be found in deep marshes or on the edge of swamps.

 

[demiurge1138]

26 it is, then?

Demiurge out.

 

[Zaster]

Sounds alright.

 

[BOZ]

hmm, and did we agree to make them Gargantuan also? or were we going to stick with Colossal?

he gets more skills & feats with 6 more HD, as well as the other usuall accompanying changes.

let me make a few comparisons between demiurge's suggested conversion and the original bronto D&D sources. that's really the bulk of what we'll be doing in this thread, at least for the ones that he or someone else has personally converted.

All D&D versions of the bronto had AC 5. I was thinking we would need to up its natural armor, but then a size decrease will increase the AC overall of course.

The AD&D version had them appearing in groups of 1-6, while the OD&D version had them in groups of 1-3. does science speak of these things moving around in small herds or should we stick with “Solitary or pair”?

Regular physical attacks is another thing that varies. The OD&D bronto had two attacks, clearly spelled out: 1 bite (2-12 damage) and 1 tail (3-18). The 1E bronto also had them listed as doing 3-18 damage, but does not suggest what sort of attack that is. The 2E bronto also has the 3-18 attack, but adds a 1-6 damage attack, although this attack is identified as a tail slap. Ahhhh!

The weight for this animal is listed alternatively as 30 tons or 40 tons.

There is also a stamping attack listed in both AD&D versions (which does not seems to require that the beast be running – it simply steps on smaller creatures): 1E has 4-40 points of damage, and 2E adds an intentional rearing back to crush opponents that is 5-50 damage.

Also, all three sources mention finding bronto most commonly in a marsh or shallow aquatic environment. This could be a holdover from the “needs to be in water to support its weight” theory, but I think scientists to agree that while it didn’t need to be in water, it often was anyway.

Other than those items, I think it’s just fine as is. Now of course, we don’t have to actually use all or even any of this stuff – it’s just something to think about. Just ask Shade – I’m always this critical. of course, I expect a return favor…

 

[BOZ]

to have a good look at the "competition", here is the text of the dinos that mortis posted links to.

Hi Guys,

A 3e version of the Brontosaurus can be found here:

http://www.dnd.starflung.com/brontosa.html

voila (this is a conversion of the OD&D bronto, as is the one below):
Brontosaurus
by Trevor Mellis
Type and Size: Gargantuan beast
Hit Dice: 26d10+182 (364 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20'
AC: 11 (+4 natural, -4 size, +1 Dex.)
Attacks: 1 bite +31 melee, 1 tail +27 melee
Damage: 2d8 +12 bite, 1d8 +12 tail
Face/Reach: 30' x 30' / 15'
Special Attacks: Trample, capsize
Special Qualities: Scent, immunities
Saves: Fort +22 Ref +15 Will +8
Abilities: Str. 35, Dex. 11, Con. 25, Int. 1, Wis. 10, Cha. 9
Skills: Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: None

Climate/Terrain: Prehistoric Aquatic
Organisation: Solitary (1) or group (1-3)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: -

Description:
The brontosaurus is one of the largest of all dinosaurs. It has a long, tapering tail and a massive body that supports a long neck and small head. The creature is 65-75 feet long and weighs more than 30 tons.

A brontosaurus is so heavy that it needs to spend most of its time in water, so that the water helps support its weight. If only its neck shows above water, the brontosaurus may be mistaken for a plesiosaurus, elasmosaurus, or a sea serpent. This dinosaur eats plants, and can only be found in deep marshes or on the edges of swamps.

Combat:
Trample (Ex): A brontosaurus can trample Large-sized or smaller creatures for 2d8+12 points of damage if fighting on solid ground or in shallow water. Opponents who do not make attacks of opportunity against the brontosaurus may attempt a Reflex save (DC 20) for half damage.

Capsize (Ex): A submerged brontosaurus that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 30 feet long, and a 20% chance to capsize a vessel 30 to 60 feet long.

Immunities: A brontosaurus is immune to all disease and poisons that do not cause damage.

other dinosaurs may be found on this page under 'd':

http://www.dnd.starflung.com/newcrea.html

thanks, we'll keep that in mind.

and here:

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6011/

Regards,
Mortis

couldn't get the formatting right to post it, but here's a more specific link: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6011/MMCA/dinosaur.html