Converting "Real World" Animals and Vermin

[Cleon]

How about covering the "Medium sized" Lynx by giving the Wild Cat advancement to Medium, and modifying the text to make them a bit heftier?

Like this:

Advancement: 2 HD (Medium)

This entry describes an actual wildcat (Felis silvestris), a bobcat or another feline of similar size. It could also represent an exceptionally large and ferocious domestic cat (feral or otherwise). Wild cats are adaptable animals that can be found in many terrains, but are commonest in forests. A wild cat family consists of a mother and her cubs. The smallest wild cats have the same stats as a common housecat (the Cat in the Monster Manual).

A wild cat is 2 to 4 feet long and can weigh up to 60 pounds, although 20 pounds is a more typically weight.

Combat
A wild cat avoids humanoids, but may attack them savagely if it feels threatened. They prefer to pounce on prey and opponents from ambush, then quickly use rake attacks.

Better?

I think so!

Also, don't forget to look at my previous post on the Wild Cat & Lynx.

 

[freyar]

I think you mean "more typical weight."

OK, then, you've persuaded me on the wild cat. But can you post the original stats for a quick comparison before these go into the CC? I'd at least like to give a wink toward the collaborative aspect of the thread.

 

[Cleon]

I think you mean "more typical weight."

You'd think correctly!

Updating the Wild Cat.

OK, then, you've persuaded me on the wild cat. But can you post the original stats for a quick comparison before these go into the CC? I'd at least like to give a wink toward the collaborative aspect of the thread.

What, don't you have the Monstrous Manual perpetually at hand?

Here you go:

Cat, Wild
Climate/Terrain: Any non-arctic
Frequency: Uncommon
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Carnivore
Intelligence: Animal (1)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Neutral
No. Appearing: 1 (2-5)
Armor Class: 5
Movement: 18
Hit Dice: 1
THAC0: 19
No. of Attacks: 3
Damage/Attack: 1-2/1-2/1-2
Special Attacks: Rear claw rake, 1-2/1-2
Special Defenses: See below
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: T (1'-2' tall)
Morale: Average (8-10)
XP Value: 35

Wild Cat
Wild cats are very similar to domestic cats, and some were pets that went feral. Generally, wild cats are tougher, stronger, and more capable hunters than domestic cats.

Wild Cats are domestic cats that have gone feral or already wild species like margays. These avoid humans but may accept food. Pelts are worth 10-20 sp.
​

That's a pretty nasty package for a 1 HD creature.

The background text describes a "domestic cat" sized feline like a Wildcat or a Margay, but the stats say they're something significantly bigger - no way an 8 pound Margay does 7.5 damage on average.

That's covered by my conversion saying small wild cats just use normal cat stats. It's for something like a lynx, bobcat, or a large male Felis silvestris.

Hmm, I just noticed that the SRD Baboon has the same length listed (2 to 4 feet long) and they're Medium sized!

Oh, I've reordered the descriptive text so the "The smallest wild cats have the same stats as a common housecat in the Monster Manual." is with the rest of the stuff about how big they are rather than tagged onto the end. I didn't make any substantial changes to it.

 

[Cleon]

We could increase the minimum size to "2½ to 4 feet" or "3 to 4 feet" to make it clearer we're talking about something the size of a Bobcat or a large tom Felis silvestris? (The latter can reach 3 feet and 20 pounds, the former average that size).

If you want to do that, I'd prefer the "2½ to 4 feet" option, since some wild cats have short, stocky body while others are longer & leaner.

 

[Cleon]

Just noticed the Wild Cat still had the Giant Lynx's rake 1d2 in its attack line - I'd changed the Combat entry but not the stat block.

It's fixed now.

Oh, and I've mentioned the Margay in the background text bit about "housecat sized" Wild Cats just being SRD Cats, since that feline is only as large as a domestic cat.

 

[freyar]

Hmmm, I only played a bit as a kid (during the 2e era), and I drew the short straw when my group divvied up its books. But maybe I'll see if I can snag a copy of the reprinted 1e MM. That's a thought!

Anyway, based on that, I have a few revisions for the wild cat. Since the 1e version had bite damage = claw damage, I think we should reduce the bite to 1d3. (I'm willing to go with 1d3 to keep the average damage up.) I also think we should drop Dex down to 15. I don't see any way that a bobcat should have Dex 19 when a smaller domestic cat is Dex 15, either in real life or by the advancement rules. (I'll give the giant lynx a free pass because, you know, it's magic. )

Do you agree?

 

[Cleon]

Hmmm, I only played a bit as a kid (during the 2e era), and I drew the short straw when my group divvied up its books. But maybe I'll see if I can snag a copy of the reprinted 1e MM. That's a thought!

I have two copies of the 1977 original Monster Manual.

Anyway, based on that, I have a few revisions for the wild cat. Since the 1e version had bite damage = claw damage, I think we should reduce the bite to 1d3. (I'm willing to go with 1d3 to keep the average damage up.) I also think we should drop Dex down to 15. I don't see any way that a bobcat should have Dex 19 when a smaller domestic cat is Dex 15, either in real life or by the advancement rules. (I'll give the giant lynx a free pass because, you know, it's magic. )

Do you agree?

Would it surprise you to hear "no".

I thought about the 1d3 bite, but it just felt weird when every other 3E cat I could find had a bite base damage better than its claw base damage.

The AD&D house cat has a single 1d2 damage "claws" attack and a 1 damage bite attack, while the 3E version has changed that to 1d2/1d2/1d3 claw/claw/bite, which is in line with all the other cats (Small-sized Races of Faerun Lynx 1d3/1d3/1d4; Medium-sized Leopard 1d4/1d4/1d6; Large-sized Lion 1d6/1d6/1d8).

Giving the Wild Cat conversion a d3/d3/d4 claw/claw/bite fits neatly into that progression. They gave the common house cat a damage dice boost from AD&D to 3E, so giving the Wild Cat one on its bite and having fit in with all of the other kitties seems the best way to go.

The Giant Lynx doesn't have Dex 19 'cause its magic, it has Dex 19 because it's a Medium-sized Cat like the Dex 19 leopard.

I'm approaching the Wild Cat like it's a little leopard rather than an enlarged housecat, since the original has such impressive combat abilities for a feline of its size. Another useful comparison is the SRD Dog, which has the same size and a similar weight (20-50 lbs) to this Wild Cat conversion.

Furthermore, an AD&D Wild Cat has AC 5, which is one point better than an AD&D housecat's AC 6 and is two points better than an AD&D wild dog's AC 7. The only practical way to give our wild cat that is to give it a higher Dex or add some natural armour. I suppose I could have given it +1 NA like a Leopard and Dex 17.

Reversing standard Advancements to make a Leopard & Lion Small gives the following comparisons:

Dog - Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, +1 NA
Small Leopard - Str 12, Dex 21, Con 13, +1 NA
Small Lion - Str 9, Dex 21, Con 11, +1 NA

So, as you see, I've put the Wild Cat in the lowest bracket for Strength (Str modifier -1 like a "smallified" Lion), in the middle on Dex and Con, and cut its natural armour (like the common house Cat).

That seems pretty reasonable to me.

It should certainly have a higher Dexterity than a dog!

If you force me too I might agree to lower the Con to 11, but I'd rather not as they're described as being "tougher" than domestic cats, so I think they need the +1 Con bonus.

 

[Cleon]

I've uploaded the Giant Lynx to the CC but will leave the Wild Cat for tomorrow since (a) it's late and (b) I want to give Freyar an opportunity to reply to my previous posts regarding the Wild Cat.

The Giant Lynx Working Draft was missing an alignment and treasure line, so I used "None" and "Always neutral" like the 3.0 conversion of the Giant Lynx already on the CC. It's pretty obvious from the original stats that's what it was going to be, I just forgot to insert the "Animal Standards" in those stats.

I've left the "Cold forest and plains" environment of the 3.0 version in as well, despite preferring just "Cold forest", since no one else gave any support for the change.

 

[freyar]

Those additions to the giant lynx seem appropriate.

As for the wild cat, this is why I don't feel comfortable trying to rush a critter for a given batch of 10.

In any case, I saw your logic on the bite damage, and I'll give you that if you'll give me Dex 17. I don't like using the dog as a reference, as it clearly has too high a Dex compared to the house cat. Frankly, the leopard and lion do, too; I just don't see any way that makes sense that they are both more agile than a standard cat (though that's more realistic than the dog). This is probably a case where the original 3e designers were in a rush and didn't talk to each other about what they were doing. At least Pathfinder reduced the dog's Dex to 13.

So, if we're making it "intermediate" between the house cat and the great cats, let's compromise with Dex 17 and NA +1. How's that?

 

[Cleon]

Those additions to the giant lynx seem appropriate.

As for the wild cat, this is why I don't feel comfortable trying to rush a critter for a given batch of 10.

In any case, I saw your logic on the bite damage, and I'll give you that if you'll give me Dex 17. I don't like using the dog as a reference, as it clearly has too high a Dex compared to the house cat. Frankly, the leopard and lion do, too; I just don't see any way that makes sense that they are both more agile than a standard cat (though that's more realistic than the dog). This is probably a case where the original 3e designers were in a rush and didn't talk to each other about what they were doing. At least Pathfinder reduced the dog's Dex to 13.

So, if we're making it "intermediate" between the house cat and the great cats, let's compromise with Dex 17 and NA +1. How's that?

Well I'm modelling it more on a downsized leopard as far as its stats go. Both a "Small Leopard" (assuming Dex 19) and the Lynx from Races of Faerun have Hide +12 and Move Silently +8, and I like the Wild Cat with the same.

A Dex 17 Wild Cat would be:

Cat, Wild
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-5
Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d3-1)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d3-1) and bite -1 melee (1d4-1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d3-1
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +11*, Jump +7, Listen +5, Move Silently +7, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Any forests, hills, or plains
Organization: Solitary or family (2-5)
Challenge Rating: ½
Advancement: 2 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —

Hmm...

I've also statted up a "Lesser Wild Cat" I wasn't intending to use, but how about I add that to the entry for the "intermediate version":

A Tiny-sized version of the above, such as a Margay, has stats between the above Wild Cat and a standard Cat, e.g.:

Lesser Wild Cat
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: ½d8+1 (3 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-11
Attack: Claw +5 melee (1d2-3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +5 melee (1d2-3) and bite +0 melee (1d3-3)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +12, Hide +16*, Jump +7, Listen +5, Move Silently +7, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Any forests, hills, or plains
Organization: Solitary or family (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a lesser wild cat must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold.

Pounce (Ex): If a wild cat charges a foe, it can make a full attack.

Then I just change the line "The smallest wild cats, such as a margay, have the same stats as the common housecat in the Monster Manual." to "The smallest wild cats, such as a margay, use the stats of the lesser wild cat given below."