Spelljammer Converting Spelljammer creatures

[Arnwyn]

Pretty good so far.

For the ignorant (me!), how is it handled for monsters of this ridiculous size - for example, the gammaroid is 2,500 ft. in diameter (the aforementioned "almost a half a mile long"). Is that just ignored and space is put at 40 ft. for gameplay's sake? Is there any provision for anything this size? (For what it's worth, my preference is to make it as close to its original size as feasible, since they're made for high level characters attacking with spelljamming ships - the basic concepts/mechanics of which I'd like to keep. Though I defer to those with experience on this.)

It should probably have a "ram" special attack of some sort (Ex) - maybe triple (quadruple?) bite damage on a charge or something?

Does something like this have a fair number of Epic feats? (I presume so.)

 

[Cleon]

Well, it's a start.

For the ignorant (me!), how is it handled for monsters of this ridiculous size - for example, the gammaroid is 2,500 ft. in diameter (the aforementioned "almost a half a mile long"). Is that just ignored and space is put at 40 ft. for gameplay's sake? Is there any provision for anything this size? (For what it's worth, my preference is to make it as close to its original size as feasible, since they're made for high level characters attacking with spelljamming ships - the basic concepts/mechanics of which I'd like to keep. Though I defer to those with experience on this.)

3rd edition allows for the Colossal size to go over 30 ft./30 ft. - there are some examples in the epic monsters section of the SRD, namely the Devastation Vermin (50 ft./40 ft.) and Xixecal (50 ft./50 ft.). That's what Freyar was referring to by "Colossal+".

The largest Space/Reach we have in the CC so far is the Draeden at 1000 ft./300 ft. - Jormungandr is a good deal longer, but we gave it a standard Colossal size since it's only the head whose location matters much.

Anyhow, we do know a Gammaroid's bite "can swallow small vessels whole", which give us some idea of what base size/reach we should give it. If it can't swallow large ships it seems unlikely the basic size is thousands of feet long.

If we say a "small vessel" is anything up to 50 ft. (which is pretty big, actually), I'd think a run-of-the-mill Gammaroid ought to have a Space measured in hundreds of feet.

Do we want to give its bite increased reach like the Giant Snapping Turtle does? I'm in favour of dropping that bit, since there's nothing in the original text about the Gammaroid having a long neck.

How about a Space/Reach of 500 ft./200 ft.?

It should probably have a "ram" special attack of some sort (Ex) - maybe triple (quadruple?) bite damage on a charge or something?

I was planning to adapt the Ramming special attack we came up with for the Chont:

Ramming (Ex): As a standard action, a chont can swim at up to quadruple speed (200 feet) and ram a waterborne target (such as a ship or another creature). To ram, the chont must end its movement in the target's space. This attack deals 2d8+5 points of damage. If the target is a creature, it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a DC 18 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Upon ramming a ship, the chont can make a Strength check to breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships). Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a DC 15 Reflex saving throw. Success means the creature takes 1d6 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact; failure means the creature is hurled overboard.​

Does something like this have a fair number of Epic feats? (I presume so.)

Of its 34 feats, seven of them have to be non-epic feats. The remaining 27 can be either epic or normal.

 

[Cleon]

I've just updated the Gammaroid Working Draft to add a placeholder for a Ramming special attack and to fix the saving throws, which were still those of the Giant Snapper.

So, do the basic numbers look OK to you?

The natural armour, Strength and Constitution scores are pretty high, but are they high enough for something so titanic?

Do we want to make this a Dire Beast with a good Will save, or are we happy with the poor Will save of a standard Magical Beast?

Also, the Gammaroid spends most of its life in space, so should we give it the Breathless trait like a Horg so it doesn't suffocate?

No, I've got a better idea, let's give it the Starborn trait plus Fire subtype of a Blazozoid. That means it'll still be affected by gas attacks AND it accounts Gammaroids not getting damaged when they burrow down to to magma or sheathe themselves itself in flame.

Hmm, I'd be just as happy using Starborn without the Fire subtype and give it fire resistance or fire immunity instead.

Which do you lot prefer?

 

[Arnwyn]

I'm happy with the starborn trait (as I use the Blazozoid conversion that you pointed to) without the fire type (just fire immunity as an Ex ability).

(With that said, for my own purposes, I'll be using the Wildspace subtype as outlined at Spelljammer: Beyond the Moons, as follows: Wildspace Traits (Ex): Gammaroids do not need to breathe air to survive.) But yeah - starborn, for consistency with what's in the CC already.

I totally agree that even 50 ft. long ships are somewhat 'big'... though looking at my own master list of spelljamming ships, 50 ft. is somewhat on the cusp of 'medium' and 'large' (the other factor is number of decks). I'd say 50 ft. or less is reasonable to use. (Again, for my own purpose, the final determinant for the ability will be tonnage.)

I'm good with the Space/Reach of 500 ft./200 ft.

The gammaroid has a... bit of a neck, according to it's picture in my MC9... not sure if it qualifies for extra reach, though. Maybe? Let's see if I can find it online... Ah, here, that was easy:

http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/gammaroi.gif

Does that qualify for extra reach?

Not sure what you'll decide to do for the ram... I know for my own purposes (again), I'll just be using hit point damage in some way (since the ship system I use can be nicely broken down into the normal 3.x hit point rules, especially for spellljammer where "sinking" doesn't matter). I get that you probably need to make something a bit more 'universal', though.

 

[Cleon]

I'm happy with the starborn trait (as I use the Blazozoid conversion that you pointed to) without the fire type (just fire immunity as an Ex ability).

(With that said, for my own purposes, I'll be using the Wildspace subtype as outlined at Spelljammer: Beyond the Moons, as follows: Wildspace Traits (Ex): Gammaroids do not need to breathe air to survive.) But yeah - starborn, for consistency with what's in the CC already.

That'd be my preference. I'd rather not have a "does not breathe" ability as it implies immunity to gas attacks, as previously explained.

I totally agree that even 50 ft. long ships are somewhat 'big'... though looking at my own master list of spelljamming ships, 50 ft. is somewhat on the cusp of 'medium' and 'large' (the other factor is number of decks). I'd say 50 ft. or less is reasonable to use. (Again, for my own purpose, the final determinant for the ability will be tonnage.)

Seems we're agreed them.

Methinks the simplest approach would be to have a Swallow Whole ability work on creatures and objects with a Space up to 50 ft. Which is almost every monster in the SRD - Gammaroids are pretty enormous!

I'm good with the Space/Reach of 500 ft./200 ft.

I'll include that in the next update, then.

The gammaroid has a... bit of a neck, according to it's picture in my MC9... not sure if it qualifies for extra reach, though. Maybe? Let's see if I can find it online... Ah, here, that was easy:

http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/gammaroi.gif

Does that qualify for extra reach?

That's the same picture as the MC9 Spelljammer Monstrous Compendium.

The Gammaroid's neck doesn't look very long compared to its body, so I'd just leave it with regular reach.

Not sure what you'll decide to do for the ram... I know for my own purposes (again), I'll just be using hit point damage in some way (since the ship system I use can be nicely broken down into the normal 3.x hit point rules, especially for spellljammer where "sinking" doesn't matter). I get that you probably need to make something a bit more 'universal', though.

The Chont's ramming special attack includes hit point damage, it just adds a "break ship" special effect.

We'll probably increase that effect from the Chont version which just causes the ships to gradually sink, since the Gammaroid's ram can cut a ship in half.

I think that the Ramming ability requiring people aboard the ship to make a Reflex save to avoid being hurled overboard covers the original's "Ship shaken" effect. Anyhow, we can leave the details of that for later, since we haven't heard from Freyar yet.

Updating Gammaroid Working Draft.

 

[Arnwyn]

That's the same picture as the MC9 Spelljammer Monstrous Compendium.

Yeah, that's what I was going for, in case people hadn't seen a picture of it. (I'm working off my original paper MC9 MC Appendix.)

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, that's what I was going for, in case people hadn't seen a picture of it. (I'm working off my original paper MC9 MC Appendix.)

Yes, the MC9 picture is the only illustration I could find too.

At least, the only picture of a living gammaroid - in the adventure SJS1 Goblin's Return there's the Gamaro, a ship that's been built from the body of a Gamarroid that died after swallowing a Witchlight Marauder!

The floorplans of that ship show it to be about 2,800 feet long - so it matches the "2,500 foot shell" of the original monster.

The ability to swallow a primary Witchlight Marauder suggest we should increase the size of its Swallow Whole.

The Spelljammer.org version of that monster g gives it a Space of 60 ft. That's for D&D 3.5, there's also a Shattered Fractines version with a Space of 50 ft. x 500 ft.

How about making the Swallow Whole 100 ft. for the full-round version and 50 ft. for the standard version?

Most large ships in Spelljammer have a keel length over 100 feet, so that would still fit with the original only being able to swallow "Small" ships if we use a generous definition of "Small".

In principle it makes more sense to make the size limit based on tonnage - at least as far as swallowing ships is concerned - but the core rules don't include ship's tonnage.

The natural armour, Strength and Constitution scores are pretty high, but are they high enough for something so titanic?

So, are we OK with these numbers?

 

[freyar]

The working draft is pretty good. The numbers Cleon suggests for Swallow Whole are ok.

Not sure I'd keep Hold Breath now that we're giving them Starborn.

Sorry, I have to remember to check this thread more frequently.

 

[Arnwyn]

Yes, I'm happy with those numbers. They seem reasonable for a creature of that size.

I agree that hold breath probably is a bit redundant with the starborn ability.

Ah... the Gamaro Base! I have that module (though I haven't gotten around to converting it the 3.5 - that's next on my list after converting the SJ compendiums. Yeah... I do see here that it says the gammaroid ganked specifically the space witchlight marauder, and that the second-stage ('primary') witchlight marauders hatched inside and killed it... more than one...

So, after typing all that out, I'm fine with big swallow whole. (And I agree with using length or 'ship size' - for the CC version/this thread, that is good enough - and what I was expecting. I was going to switch it to tonnage on my own.)

 

[Cleon]

Yes, I'm happy with those numbers. They seem reasonable for a creature of that size.

I'm concerned that the Strength may too low.

The Gargantuan template is for a creature roughly 8 times larger (longer) than the original, but a Gammaroid is up to 125 times larger than an average-sized Giant Snapping Turtle going by the shell diameters (2,500 feet vs. 20 feet).

Consider it in terms of Carrying Capacity vs. body weight.

A Giant Snapping Turtle weighs 15+ tons and has a heavy load of 12,480 pounds (Str 32 = 2040 lbs carry, Huge quadruped = ×6 load), a load-to-bodyweight ratio of 0.416.

The Working Draft Gammaroid has a heavy load of 1,413,120 pounds, (Str 36 = 58,880 lbs carry [Str 26's 920 lbs ×64 for +30 Str], Colossal quadruped = ×24).

That's 706 short tons, which seems pretty impressive - until you realize how massive a Gammaroid is.

So how much does a Gammaroid weigh? If it has the same proportions and density as the Snapping Turtle, it's a simple matter of scaling it up.

Let's see...

2,500 ft. Gammaroid shell divided by 20 ft. Turtle shell is a length ratio of 125. Cube that 125 gets a volume ratio of 1,953,125. Multiply that by the 15 ton weight of the Giant Snapping Turtle and we find the Gammaroid weighs...

Almost thirty million tons!

29,296,875 tons, to be precise.

That makes a 706 ton carrying capacity woefully low. It's a load-to-bodyweight ratio of 0.000024098, or a shade more than one part in forty thousand of the Gammaroid's bodyweight.

Now I'm going on the assumption that the 2,500 foot shell is for a particularly big Gammaroid. If our base Gammaroid is "only" 1,000 feet in shell diameter it'll still weigh around two million tons (the above sum works out to 1,875,000 tons).

For the sake of argument I'll be using that assumption for the working draft. A 1000 foot shell plus 2 million ton weight.

If it has the same load-to-bodyweight ratio as the Snapping Turtle, it'll need to be able to carry about 832,000 tons. For a Colossal quadruped to carry that much with its ×24 size multiplier it'll need a Strength of...

...about 107.

[A Str 107 Colossal quadruped has a carrying capacity of 1,635,778,560 pounds (817,899 tons)]

That's too high for me - I don't want them to be stronger than a Draeden! Although a Str around 70 or 80 like a Stone Colossus or Iron Colossus would be acceptable.

So, how about we give the Gammaroid an ability to lift exceptionally heavy loads, like we did the Ferry Turtle while also increasing its Strength score?

e.g.:

Str: 74

Carrying Capacity: Due to their prodigious size and sturdy build, gammaroids can bear immensely heavy loads. Their carrying capacity is a hundred times that of an ordinary creature with their size and Strength. A typical gammaroid can carry a light load of up to 286,720 tons, a medium load of 286,721-573,440 tons, a heavy load of 573,441-860,160 tons, and can drag 4,300,800 tons.