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Converting True Dragons

Cleon

Adventurer
How about any creature of Large size or smaller for Alternate Form?
Is that IN ADDITION TO or INSTEAD OF the ability to become a Huge Animal or Humanoid that's already in Alternate Form? I quite like the idea of a Dragon Ruler being able to disguise themselves as an Elephant or Storm Giant.

Bahamut-style immunities will work.
For clarification, I assumed you meant I should include Bahamut's immunity to acid, cold, electricity and fire to the suite of immunities Pearl already possesses.

Let me know if you'd like me to remove them.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Is that IN ADDITION TO or INSTEAD OF the ability to become a Huge Animal or Humanoid that's already in Alternate Form? I quite like the idea of a Dragon Ruler being able to disguise themselves as an Elephant or Storm Giant.
Checking the 3E version of Bahamut, rather than using Alternate Form he has "He can use also use shapechange at will as a 20th-level sorcerer" in his spell-like abilities.

Tiamat had at will polymorph self in AD&D but curiously lost that ability in her 3E incarnation.

I'm wondering whether we can use SLAs for the Rulers. Maybe give them polymorph self plus shapechange into any dragon in their portfolio?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Hrmmm, not sure what I was thinking with the suggested change for Alternate Form. Let's leave it the way you had it originally. I think most dragons with Alternate Form have Large or smaller, but I agree, Huge is better. I think I'd prefer to stick to the usual Alternate Form ability rather than converting to an SLA. (Sigh. This seems a bit cleaner in Pathfinder.)

Yes, that's what I meant about Bahamut's immunities.

An insight bonus to AC (rather than deflection) as you suggest sounds good to me!
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Hrmmm, not sure what I was thinking with the suggested change for Alternate Form. Let's leave it the way you had it originally. I think most dragons with Alternate Form have Large or smaller, but I agree, Huge is better. I think I'd prefer to stick to the usual Alternate Form ability rather than converting to an SLA. (Sigh. This seems a bit cleaner in Pathfinder.)
So we're just leaving the Alternate Form as-is with the Huge Animal or Humanoid plus any age Chaotic dragon.

Yes, that's what I meant about Bahamut's immunities.

An insight bonus to AC (rather than deflection) as you suggest sounds good to me!
Updating Peal the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

What do you think of my modifiable sorcerer casting proposal?

How about we give it sorcerer casting but add a note that each aspect it manifests can have different "Sorcerer Known" spells based on the situation the Dragon Ruler expects to deal with?
I was thinking something like:

Each aspect of the Moon Dragon has its own selection of sorcerer spells known tailored to the situation or environment Pearl manifested the aspect to deal with. Her typical selection of Sorcerer Spells Known is as follows:
 

Cleon

Adventurer
We also need to decide on damage for her breath weapons.

My original idea was to give her the same damage for each breath weapon as a Great Wyrm dragon of that type, but upon reflection that seemed a bit weak for the less powerful dragons she emulates:

Dragon
Breath Weapon
Shape
Damage/Effect
Amberjade-green gas80 ft. cone24d10 acid
plus 3d6 jade curse*
ruby-red flames80 ft. cone24d10 fire
plus 3d6 ruby curse*
Blackacid140 ft. line24d4 acid
Brassflames140 ft. line12d6 fire
sleep gas80 ft. conesleep for 1d6+12 rounds
Copperacid140 ft. line24d4 acid
slow gas80 ft. coneslowed for 1d6+12 rounds
Redflames80 ft. cone24d10 fire
Whitefrost80 ft. cone12d6 cold

A 12d6 breath weapon has an average damage that's less than a third of a 24d10 breath weapon, making it such an unoptimal selection Pearl is unlikely to use it except in special circumstances.

Maybe have the weakest dragons (White & Brass) do 24d6 damage, the mid-strength dragons (Black & Copper) 24d8 and keep the 24d10 of the strongest (Amber & Red)?

EDIT: Like so:

Dragon
Original Damage
Average
Damage
Average
Amber24d10 acid
plus 3d6 jade curse*
132
plus 10.5
24d10
plus 3d6
132
plus 10.5
24d10 fire
plus 3d6 ruby curse*
132
plus 10.5
24d10
plus 3d6
132
plus 10.5
Black24d4 acid6024d8108
Brass12d6 fire4224d684
sleep for 1d6+12 roundsn/a
Copper24d4 acid6024d8108
slowed for 1d6+12 roundsn/a
Red24d10 fire13224d10132
White12d6 cold4224d684

Hmm… I'm tempted to bump them all up a dice size. She is supposed to be the boss of all Chaotics, after all:

Dragon
Original Damage
Average
Damage
Average
Amber24d10 acid
plus 3d6 jade curse*
132
plus 10.5
24d12
plus 4d6
156
plus 14
24d10 fire
plus 3d6 ruby curse*
132
plus 10.5
24d12
plus 4d6
156
plus 14
Black24d4 acid6024d10132
Brass12d6 fire4224d8108
sleep for 1d6+12 roundsn/a
Copper24d4 acid6024d10132
slowed for 1d6+12 roundsn/a
Red24d10 fire13224d12156
White12d6 cold4224d8108

Alternatively we just have ALL the breath weapons do the same damage - maybe 24d12? In the original rules her breath weapon did damage based on her current hit points as per a standard BECMI/AD&D dragon.

Upon reflection, that's a lot easier.

So shall we make it 24d12 for all energy breaths, plus 4d6 curse for the Amber's curses?
 
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freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Yes, leave the Alternate Form as-is.

I'm all for 24d12 damage for all the breath weapons and 4d6 for the curses.

I think I'm content with letting Pearl vary her spell selection via cleric spells prepared (particularly with the domains). I think swapping out "sorc spells known" is a bit like wizard casting, right?

Also, does "In her natural form, Pearl can cast her spells with but a word" mean that we're giving her Still Spell and Eschew Materials as bonus feats in her natural form?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Yes, leave the Alternate Form as-is.

I'm all for 24d12 damage for all the breath weapons and 4d6 for the curses.
Updating Peal the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

I think I'm content with letting Pearl vary her spell selection via cleric spells prepared (particularly with the domains). I think swapping out "sorc spells known" is a bit like wizard casting, right?
Oh well, I guess I can leave that to a Cleon Special™. :.-(

Also, does "In her natural form, Pearl can cast her spells with but a word" mean that we're giving her Still Spell and Eschew Materials as bonus feats in her natural form?
I would think Automatic Still Spell×3 plus Eschew Materials would be more accurate if you want to do it using feats rather than an arbitrary Special Ability.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Hmm, yes, you're right on the feats. But I guess the line in her spells entry will do well enough. Actually, where does that come from in the original monster? I'm having trouble finding it.

SLAs next, I suppose. Should we just give her the great wyrm SLAs of all the dragons she has the breath weapons from (frequencies overlap, not stack)?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Hmm, yes, you're right on the feats. But I guess the line in her spells entry will do well enough. Actually, where does that come from in the original monster? I'm having trouble finding it.
That's because it's not in the original text but is a combination of the 3E stats for Bahamut and Tiamat in Manual of the Planes (which both have "with but a word" spellcasting) and the AD&D standard dragons' "Dragon spells have only a verbal component".

Let's just leave the wording as is.

SLAs next, I suppose. Should we just give her the great wyrm SLAs of all the dragons she has the breath weapons from (frequencies overlap, not stack)?
Yes I guess that'll do. For a start. :p

I'm more inclined to have them stack though.

Let's see, we've got:

Amber: 3/day—protection from law; 1/day—disintegrate, mass charm monster, foresight
Black: 3/day—darkness (radius ??? ft.), insect plague, 1/day—plant growth.
Brass: At-will—speak with animals,3/day—endure elements (radius ??? ft.); 1/day—suggestion, control winds, control weather
Copper: 2/day—stone shape; 1/day—transmute rock to mud or mud to rock, wall of stone, move earth
Red: X/day—locate object; 3/day—suggestion; 1/day—find the path, discern location
White: 3/day—fog cloud, gust of wind, wall of ice; 1/day—control weather

The only overlap is both White and Brass have control weather. I don't think making that 2/day is going to be deal breaking.

We need to decide what variable to replace the "per age category" ability. I'm inclined to make the Red's locate object an At-Will ability and use 150 ft. or 200 ft. for the radius of the Black's darkness and the Brass's endure elements.


Oh, and I guess we should also give it the dragons other (Sp) and (Su) abilities, namely:

Amber: luck bonus, detect gems
Black: charm reptiles, corrupt water
Brass: summon djinni (as summon monster VII)
Copper: spider climb
White: icewalking, freezing fog
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I'll agree with your suggestions for locate object and go with 200 ft for both radii. This looks good, including the other (Sp) and (Su) abilities!

I guess spells should be next, but I'm kind of dreading that list. Sorc spells first? Spells per day is 6/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7, I believe.
0th - acid splash, arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, mage hand, message, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue ??
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I'll agree with your suggestions for locate object and go with 200 ft for both radii.
Good-oh!

Updating Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft (with Pearl spelled correctly for a change!).

This looks good, including the other (Sp) and (Su) abilities!
I don't have time to add those right now since I'm going out for a few hours. Might add them later today. Or I might not.

I guess spells should be next, but I'm kind of dreading that list. Sorc spells first? Spells per day is 6/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7, I believe.
0th - acid splash, arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, mage hand, message, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue ??
Yup, that's the spells per day I reckon too.

Of those nine choices, I'd opt for arcane mark, detect magic, mage hand, message, read magic, resistance for the zero-level six.
 
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Cleon

Adventurer
I've updated the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft to include the other (Su) and (Sp) abilities.

I decided to expand the Spider Climb to match the standard spider climb spell rather than only working on stone surfaces like the Copper Dragon version, mainly for simplicity.

If you approve the change, it suggests the Icewalking ability Pearl gets from White Dragons is completely overlapped by its Spider Climb so is a bit redundant. However, Icewalking also provides immunity to the grease effect of Freezing Fog, so it's worth leaving in.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I've updated the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft to include the other (Su) and (Sp) abilities.

I decided to expand the Spider Climb to match the standard spider climb spell rather than only working on stone surfaces like the Copper Dragon version, mainly for simplicity.

If you approve the change, it suggests the Icewalking ability Pearl gets from White Dragons is completely overlapped by its Spider Climb so is a bit redundant. However, Icewalking also provides immunity to the grease effect of Freezing Fog, so it's worth leaving in.
We need a duration for the Luck Bonus special ability. The original was 1d3 hours plus 3 hours per age category, but Pearl doesn't have age categories. Maybe or 1d3+48 hours? Or perhaps +42 or +45?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Lots to answer there...

For the spells, the slash line was spells per day, but I was listing proposed spells known (which should be 9 per the SRD). Are those acceptable? Then we can move to 1st level.

For icewalking, how about we remove it as basically redundant but add the immunity to grease separately?

1d3+48 hrs is fine for the luck bonus, though the randomized part is so small compared to the +48 that it just seems annoyingly fiddly. Would just 48 hrs work?

Hmmm. None of the original versions seem to have magic resistance listed, so we're kind of on our own. I was going to suggest looking at Ahi and Rahab for comparisons, but we didn't give them SR! Should we go back and do that? In any case, great wyrm gold dragons have SR 33, force dragons have 57, and prismatic dragons have 86, though perhaps that's getting beyond where we want to go with CR. If we go by HD for the epic dragons, we're more in the SR 40-55 range. I don't know, maybe SR 45ish?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Lots to answer there...

For the spells, the slash line was spells per day, but I was listing proposed spells known (which should be 9 per the SRD). Are those acceptable? Then we can move to 1st level.
Oh dang it, I must have still been thinking Wizard Spell rules.

I'm not in favour of the acid splash and touch of fatigue. How about swapping them?

Maybe for ghost sound and prestidigitation?

For icewalking, how about we remove it as basically redundant but add the immunity to grease separately?
There's no need to do that. The immunity is only to dragon's own freezing fog's SLA's grease effect, not all grease effects.

We only need to change the line "The dragon is immune to the grease effect because of its icewalking ability" to make it "its spider climb ability".

We can also add a line to the Spider Climb ability "This ability also renders Pearl immune to grease effects such as that left by her freezing fog spell-like ability."

Which reminds me, Sometime I should go through the text and replace a bunch of "its" with "her" as Pearl is a lady dragon.

1d3+48 hrs is fine for the luck bonus, though the randomized part is so small compared to the +48 that it just seems annoyingly fiddly. Would just 48 hrs work?
The 1d3 is in the original so I would rather include a dice variable. How about we increase it to 1d12 instead?

Hmmm. None of the original versions seem to have magic resistance listed, so we're kind of on our own.
We should give her an SR comparable to the other Dragon Rulers. We have Bahamut (CR 25, SR 30), Gruaghlothor (CR 25, SR 30), Tiamat (CR 25, SR 30) and Sardior (no CR given, SR 40).

So I guess CR 25 and SR 30 looks appropriate!

I was going to suggest looking at Ahi and Rahab for comparisons, but we didn't give them SR! Should we go back and do that? In any case, great wyrm gold dragons have SR 33, force dragons have 57, and prismatic dragons have 86, though perhaps that's getting beyond where we want to go with CR. If we go by HD for the epic dragons, we're more in the SR 40-55 range. I don't know, maybe SR 45ish?
Oops!

Rahab and Ahi had "Standard" magic resistance in their original AD&D versions, but we should give the upgraded versions Spell Resistance.

A standard SRD Dragon has a Spell Resistance of CR plus 6, which would give the CR 22 Rahab and Ahi SR 28.

However, these are unique dragons so could/might/should have a bit higher SRs.

For example, Sardior's Thanes have SRs of CR +6, +7, +8, +7, +7 and +11, while in the CC conversions we have An-Ur +11, Dhrakoth +12, Fafnir +15, Gaumahavi +6, Medrinia +9, Midgard +14, Mordukhavar +10, Nidhogg +11, Vanathor +11 and Vore Lekiniskiy +18.

So we've got numbers between CR +6 and CR +18 with CR +11 being the most common in the CC conversions.

I'd be OK with that (SR 33) or +10 for SR 32 or even +8 for SR 30.

Spell Resistance 33 or 32 feels more appropriate for Rahab or Ahi, although it does make Pearl's SR feel a little low.

Then, Pearl has that nifty "immunity to spells up to 6th level" thing going on as well.

Still, if you fancied tapping Pearl's Spell Resistance up a bit from the official 3E Dragon Ruler stats' SR 30 standard to, say, SR 36 I would make no great objection.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Has anyone ever converted planar dragons yet?
I don't think there are any Planar Dragons that lack official 3.5 stats.

Let's see, there's:

Draconomicon (2003):
Battle Dragon, Blight Dragon, Chaos Dragon, Ethereal Dragon, Oceanus Dragon, Pyroclastic Dragon, Radiant Dragon, Rust Dragon, Shadow Dragon, Styx Dragon and Tarterian Dragon
Dragon #321 (2004): Adamantine Dragon, Arboreal Dragon, Beast Dragon and Concordant Dragon,
Dragon #344 (2006): Astral Dragon, Axial Dragon, Chole Dragon, Elysian Dragon and Gloom Dragon.

Some of the above only appear in 3E, but I don't think there are any AD&D Planar Dragons that lack official upgrades to 3E.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Aren't critters immune to their own abilities by default? But we can always add those lines as you suggest.

1d12+48 hour luck bonus works.

I can go for CR 25, SR 30!

Spells: I could go for ghost touch and prestigiditation, so let's do those.
1st level -- hypnotism, protection from law, ray of enfeeblement, summon monster I, unseen servant ?? (5 spells known)
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Aren't critters immune to their own abilities by default? But we can always add those lines as you suggest.
If they were, the SRD White Dragon needn't bother having the "The dragon is immune to the grease effect because of its icewalking ability" text.

1d12+48 hour luck bonus works.

I can go for CR 25, SR 30!
Works for me!

Updating the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

Spells: I could go for ghost touch and prestigiditation, so let's do those.
1st level -- hypnotism, protection from law, ray of enfeeblement, summon monster I, unseen servant ?? (5 spells known)
Hurr… I'd be inclined to swap summon monster I since it'll be so weak compared to a CR 25 dragon. The hypnotism seems of rather limited utility too.

She's got protection from law as a 3/day SLA so hardly needs it as a sorcerer spell as well.

Let's see, what are its 1st level Domain spells again (remember it can select these as sorcerer spells):

Chaos: protection from law, Destruction: inflict light wounds, Earth: magic stone, Evil: protection from good, Fire: burning hands, Knowledge: detect secret doors, Luck: entropic shield and Trickery: disguise self.

Of those, entropic shield is the standout useful low-level spell.

We could also swap your proposed protection from law for protection from good.

Maybe true strike instead of hypnotism or summon monster I?

That'd make it entropic shield, protection from good, ray of enfeeblement, true strike, unseen servant.
 

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