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Converting True Dragons

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I do like the idea of expanding her SLA list a little. But I still feel like using an arcane spell slot on a divine spell is some kind of a waste, even though I do like your individual suggestions.

Tell you what, let's pause the sorcerer spells and table the SLA expansion also. We should see what fits in the typical cleric spells prepared first; if we can't get all the spells we want there (or enough copies of them), let's fill some in the other places. Does that work for you?
 

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Cleon

Adventurer
I do like the idea of expanding her SLA list a little. But I still feel like using an arcane spell slot on a divine spell is some kind of a waste, even though I do like your individual suggestions.

Tell you what, let's pause the sorcerer spells and table the SLA expansion also. We should see what fits in the typical cleric spells prepared first; if we can't get all the spells we want there (or enough copies of them), let's fill some in the other places. Does that work for you?

Fine by me.

I'd be OK just giving her the "Chaos option" version of the generic Demon Lord's at-will SLAs less the "evil" spells.

That'd make it: At will—astral projection, chaos hammer, cloak of chaos, detect law, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, plane shift, shapechange, telekinesis, word of chaos.

The generic demon lord also adds "3/day—any one symbol" plus two at-wills, two 3/days and two 1/days spell-like abilities. The additional spell-like abilities being chosen for thematic appropriateness.

So I'd have no objection to adding some more SLAs but I'm reasonably happy with that selection.

Indeed I would be willing to cut out a few - the astral projection, shapechange and telekinesis might be surplus to requirements.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I think I'd be happy with that at will SLA list, and I could also see dropping shapechange since her alternate form is pretty broad. Were you also suggesting adding a symbol?

Shall we work on the cleric spells?
0th -- cure minor wounds x2, inflict minor wounds x2, resistance, virtue ???
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I think I'd be happy with that at will SLA list, and I could also see dropping shapechange since her alternate form is pretty broad. Were you also suggesting adding a symbol?

I'm satisfied with just the proposed SLAs minus the shapechange.

Updating the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

Shall we work on the cleric spells?
0th -- cure minor wounds x2, inflict minor wounds x2, resistance, virtue ???

I wouldn't bother with the inflict minor wounds. Probably replace them with two detect poison spells or a detect poison plus something else.

Anyway, we haven't finished the Sorcerer Spells Known yet. We should do those first.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
So would this work?
0th -- cure minor wounds x2, detect poison, guidance, resistance, virtue ???

I'd like to work out the cleric spells before finishing the sorc spells known because we kept having problems deciding which divine spells to add to the arcane list. I think we should only add the ones that don't fit in under typical divine spells prepared.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
So would this work?
0th -- cure minor wounds x2, detect poison, guidance, resistance, virtue ???

I'd like to work out the cleric spells before finishing the sorc spells known because we kept having problems deciding which divine spells to add to the arcane list. I think we should only add the ones that don't fit in under typical divine spells prepared.

Yes, that works for me.

Updating the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
OK, then, let's try 1st level cleric

1st -- cause fear, command, cure light wounds, detect good, divine favor, entropic shield, inflict light wounds, obscuring mist, protection from good

How's that? I wouldn't be opposed to dropping some of those and doubling up others.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
OK, then, let's try 1st level cleric

1st -- cause fear, command, cure light wounds, detect good, divine favor, entropic shield, inflict light wounds, obscuring mist, protection from good

How's that? I wouldn't be opposed to dropping some of those and doubling up others.

Those all look fine apart from cause fear and command, the former is pretty useless for a dragon with a DC 44 Frightful Presence, the latter's saving throw is mediocre for a CR-appropriate opponent.

I'd be OK keeping command if you insist but would be more inclined to swap it for, say, a second cure light wounds or divine favour, as for cause fear I'd swap it for, say, detect secret doors or the aforementioned divine favour or cure light wounds.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Hmmm, I was thinking she wouldn't really need to be detecting secret doors much. Surely she has "people" for that. :p Let's swap those two spells out for a CLW and a divine favor.

2nd -- aid, align weapon, cure moderate wounds, inflict moderate wounds, invisibility, lesser restoration, resist energy, shatter, zone of truth
(Invisibility is Trickery domain. I picked shatter because it's in a couple of the domains. And how often do we use zone of truth?)
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Hmmm, I was thinking she wouldn't really need to be detecting secret doors much. Surely she has "people" for that. :p Let's swap those two spells out for a CLW and a divine favor.

That works for me.

Updating the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

2nd -- aid, align weapon, cure moderate wounds, inflict moderate wounds, invisibility, lesser restoration, resist energy, shatter, zone of truth
(Invisibility is Trickery domain. I picked shatter because it's in a couple of the domains. And how often do we use zone of truth?)

Wouldn't zone of truth be more appropriate for Pearl's Lawful Dragon Ruler counterpart? I'd think undetectable alignment would be more useful. The align weapon is an interesting choice - her opponents won't be expecting attacks of a non-Chaotic alignment!

Which brings me to question why she doesn't have the Chaotic subtype and the associated "attacks are Chaotic-aligned" text in Combat. Did we discuss that?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I can agree to swap in undetectable alignment instead of zone of truth.

Superficially, the Chaotic subtype would make sense, but true dragons don't seem to have alignment subtypes much. In fact, on a spot check through the CC (and SRD), I didn't find one with an alignment subtype, including dragons highly associated with Bahamut. So I'm thinking we should probably leave it off. That sound ok to you?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I can agree to swap in undetectable alignment instead of zone of truth.

Updating Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft with said spells swapped.

Superficially, the Chaotic subtype would make sense, but true dragons don't seem to have alignment subtypes much. In fact, on a spot check through the CC (and SRD), I didn't find one with an alignment subtype, including dragons highly associated with Bahamut. So I'm thinking we should probably leave it off. That sound ok to you?

Well the Fiendish Codex II version of an Aspect of Tiamat has alignment subtypes (Lawful, Evil), although most 3E incarnations of her only have the Extraplanar subtype.

More pertinently, the Chaos Dragon in the 3.5 edition Draconomicon has an alignment subtype. I award no prizes for guessing what it is.

Oh, and the Draconomicon's Abyssal Drake has the Chaotic and Evil alignment subtypes.

So there are precedents among the planar dragons for making Pearl a Dragon (Chaos, Extraplanar) and I'd be in favour of doing so.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
That's good enough precedent for me! Chaotic subtype it is.

3rd-- bestow curse, cure serious wounds, dispel magic, inflict serious wounds, magic circle against law, nondetection, remove curse, wind wall
?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
That's good enough precedent for me! Chaotic subtype it is.

3rd-- bestow curse, cure serious wounds, dispel magic, inflict serious wounds, magic circle against law, nondetection, remove curse, wind wall
?

Pearl's SLAs include at-will greater dispel magic so the dispel magic is superfluous. The rest of the selection is fine.

I'd go for either contagion or clairaudience/clairvoyance (Knowledge Domain) as a substitute.

Actually, that reminds me. I ought to mark which of the Cleric Spells are Domain Spells.

I believe it's currently 1st—protection from good (Evil Domain), 2nd—invisibility (Trickery Domain). We still have to decide on whether her alignment's Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral.
 


freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I get the sense that she should be CN.

Let's go for clairaudience/clairvoyance.

I don't have time to look at the 4th level spells, but hopefully I can start keeping up a little better from here on out this summer.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I get the sense that she should be CN.

I'm undecided. In BECMI Chaos creatures are generally malevolent entities while Lawful creatures are benevolent, which suggests Chaotic Evil, but contrariwise some Mystaran Chaotic creatures are Chaotic Neutral in the 2E Monstrous Compendium, including a good few dragons.

So I could go either way.

Let's go for clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Agreed.

Updating Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

I don't have time to look at the 4th level spells, but hopefully I can start keeping up a little better from here on out this summer.

No hurry. I'm used to waiting! :p
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
It's true about BECMI, but she is going to represent chaotic metallic dragons now, too, so I think we need to go with CN.

4th: chaos hammer (D), control water, cure critical wounds, dismissal, freedom of movement, inflict critical wounds, restoration, tongues ??
 

Cleon

Adventurer
It's true about BECMI, but she is going to represent chaotic metallic dragons now, too, so I think we need to go with CN.

Well you seem more committed to this question than I am, so I'll accede to your preference and make her Chaotic Neutral.

I was thinking The Great Dragon would likely be pure Neutral, so I guess Diamond will be Lawful Neutral when we get round to him.

Come to think of it, I'll go through and make sure all Pearl's gender pronouns are correct in the text. There are a few stray "him" and "it" that should be "her" and the like.

It's true about BECMI, but she is going to represent chaotic metallic dragons now, too, so I think we need to go with CN.

4th: chaos hammer (D), control water, cure critical wounds, dismissal, freedom of movement, inflict critical wounds, restoration, tongues ??

She's already got chaos hammer as an at-will SLA so we need to swap that out.

Also, shouldn't she have telepathy and/or tongues as a Special Ability. Isn't that a standard feature for divine-equivalent creatures in 3E?

…well that's curious, I checked my notes and for the current 3E Dragon Rulers:

Bahamut the Platinum Dragon had telepathy and tongues in 2E, but neither ability in 3E.
Tiamat the Chromatic Dragon has tongues in 2E, but neither telepathy or tongues in 3E.
Gruaghlothor the Ferrous Dragon has "an ability to communicate with any intelligent creature" in 2E which Enworld converted to a telepathy 120 ft. SQ in 3E.
Sardior The Ruby Dragon has telepathy as a SQ in 2E. In 3E he has "read all languages and speak directly to all beings within 8 miles" and presumably can use his knowledge of all psionic powers to speak mind-to-mind if necessary.

How about giving Pearl telepathy to, say, a few hundred feet? Maybe 300 feet like the majority of 3.5 edition Demon Princes (i.e. Demononicon entries)? I'd go down to 200 or 150 ft. if that seems too high, but wouldn't fancy 100 ft. like most 3.0 Demon Princes had (i.e. Book of Vile Darkness).

I've just noticed Sardior's WotC website stats don't list a manifester level for his psionics. If he uses the default SLA caster level for divine rank 8 he'd be CL 18th, which is lower than all his thanes who have CL 21 or 23 (or rather ML). Plain old mindlink is only Telepathy 1 and with ML 18th has a 90-foot range for establishing the link, which is "works over any distance (although not from one plane to another)" once established. I'd think he'd be, say CL 25+ to be higher than his minions though, which'd give his mindlink a 105+ foot range.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
4th: chaos hammer (D), control water, cure critical wounds, dismissal, freedom of movement, inflict critical wounds, restoration, tongues ??

Getting back on track, I'd swap chaos hammer for confusion since that's on the Pearl Domain Spells list and isn't on the standard Cleric list. I'd also drop tongues in favour of adding a telepathy SQ and instead give it, say, divination. That'd make it:

4th: confusion (D), control water, cure critical wounds, dismissal, divination, freedom of movement, inflict critical wounds, restoration.

Oh, and I'll update Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft to be "Always chaotic neutral" (and consistently female!).
 

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