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Converting True Dragons

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Maybe it's just their own breath weapons critters are immune to.

For the 1st-level spells, shouldn't the domain spells just work for her cleric spell slots? We didn't give her the ability to cast them as sorcerer spells, and there seems no need to since she has cleric casting anyway also. We can still do protection from good and true strike. Then maybe shield instead of entropic shield. That seems like the closest match. So we'd have protection from good, ray of enfeeblement, shield, true strike, unseen servant.

At 2nd level, maybe blindness/deafness, cat's grace, detect thoughts, hideous laughter, mirror image? Thoughts?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Maybe it's just their own breath weapons critters are immune to.

For the 1st-level spells, shouldn't the domain spells just work for her cleric spell slots? We didn't give her the ability to cast them as sorcerer spells, and there seems no need to since she has cleric casting anyway also.
Dang it, as you pointed out I omitted the "Can also cast cleric spells as arcane spells." when writing what cleric spell domains she has access too. I was always assuming she had the arcane-casting cleric spell ability that many true dragons have. She combines the abilities of ALL chaotic dragons, and some chaotic dragons can do that (i.e. the Amber, Brass, Copper and Red).

I'd just perform the following tweak:

Spells: Pearl is a 20th-level sorcerer and a 20th-level cleric. She can also cast cleric spells and spells from cleric domains as arcane spells. Pearl has access to all the domains available to the chaotic dragons she rules (For the amber, black, brass, copper, amber, red and white dragons, these are Chaos, Destruction, Earth, Evil, Fire, Knowledge, Luck and Trickery). In her natural form, Pearl can cast her spells with but a word.

We can still do protection from good and true strike. Then maybe shield instead of entropic shield. That seems like the closest match. So we'd have protection from good, ray of enfeeblement, shield, true strike, unseen servant.
I'd find those changes acceptable.

I'm actually not that bothered about whether the protection is to good or law - although protection from law is arguably a better thematic fit to her as the Ruler of Chaotic Dragons.

At 2nd level, maybe blindness/deafness, cat's grace, detect thoughts, hideous laughter, mirror image? Thoughts?
The 2nd level spell choices look fine, but we'd better settle the question of arcane cleric spells first.

If she does have cleric access, there are a few juicy choices to consider for the 1st level sorcerer casting - like divine favor or shield of faith instead of the true strike or shield/entropic shield - although we should always have the question "would that make more sense as one of her standard cleric spells" floating in the back of our minds.

We'll need to consider her Domain spells eventually whether or not she can cast them as arcane spells, so it seems pertinent to list them now:

1st Level Domain Spells:
Chaos: protection from law, Destruction: inflict light wounds, Earth: magic stone, Evil: protection from good, Fire: burning hands, Knowledge: detect secret doors, Luck: entropic shield and Trickery: disguise self.

2nd Level Domain Spells:
Chaos: shatter, Destruction: shatter, Earth: soften earth and stone, Evil: desecrate, Fire: produce flame, Knowledge: detect thoughts, Luck: aid and Trickery: invisibility.

3rd Level Domain Spells:
Chaos: magic circle against law, Destruction: contagion, Earth: stone shape, Evil: magic circle against good, Fire: resist energy* (fire), Knowledge: clairaudience/clairvoyance, Luck: protection from energy and Trickery: nondetection.

4th Level Domain Spells:
Chaos: chaos hammer, Destruction: inflict critical wounds, Earth: spike stones, Evil: unholy blight, Fire: wall of fire, Knowledge: divination, Luck: freedom of movement and Trickery: confusion.

5th Level Domain Spells:
Chaos: dispel law, Destruction: mass inflict light wounds, Earth: wall of stone, Evil: dispel good, Fire: fire shield, Knowledge: true seeing, Luck: break enchantment and Trickery: false vision.

6th Level Domain Spells:
Chaos: animate objects, Destruction: harm, Earth: stoneskin, Evil: create undead, Fire: fire seeds, Knowledge: find the path, Luck: mislead and Trickery: mislead.

7th Level Domain Spells:
Chaos: word of chaos, Destruction: disintegrate, Earth: earthquake, Evil: blasphemy, Fire: fire storm, Knowledge: legend lore, Luck: spell turning and Trickery: screen.

8th Level Domain Spells:
Chaos: cloak of chaos, Destruction: earthquake, Earth: iron body, Evil: unholy aura, Fire: incendiary cloud, Knowledge: discern location, Luck: moment of prescience and Trickery: polymorph any object.

9th Level Domain Spells:
Chaos: summon monster IX* (chaos), Destruction: implosion, Earth: elemental swarm* (earth), Evil: summon monster IX* (evil), Fire: elemental swarm* (fire), Knowledge: foresight, Luck: miracle and Trickery: time stop.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
In principle, I think it would be fine to let her cast cleric spells as arcane spells. But I don't think we should put cleric spells in the "spells known" list, since that just reduces her overall spells available --- she knows all the cleric spells as a cleric caster already. What if we go with the proposed sorcerer spells known but allow her to cast any cleric spell as part of her sorc spells per day? Or is that overpowered? The main thing is that I don't think those dragon types you listed (which can cast cleric spells as arcane spells) also have cleric casting.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
In principle, I think it would be fine to let her cast cleric spells as arcane spells. But I don't think we should put cleric spells in the "spells known" list, since that just reduces her overall spells available --- she knows all the cleric spells as a cleric caster already. What if we go with the proposed sorcerer spells known but allow her to cast any cleric spell as part of her sorc spells per day? Or is that overpowered? The main thing is that I don't think those dragon types you listed (which can cast cleric spells as arcane spells) also have cleric casting.
Giving her the ability to freely cast all her accessible cleric spells as sorcerer spells is going way too far.

So I'd just use the draconic standard "sorcerous clerical casting" rule but incorporate few or no cleric spells in her Sorcerer Spells Known list.

i.e. the aforementioned tweak:

Spells: Pearl is a 20th-level sorcerer and a 20th-level cleric. She can also cast cleric spells and spells from cleric domains as arcane spells. Pearl has access to all the domains available to the chaotic dragons she rules (For the amber, black, brass, copper, amber, red and white dragons, these are Chaos, Destruction, Earth, Evil, Fire, Knowledge, Luck and Trickery). In her natural form, Pearl can cast her spells with but a word.

I'm fine with not including any cleric spells in her Sorcerer spell lists due to the aforementioned "would that make more sense as one of her standard cleric spells" issue. I would just prefer it to be a possibility to keep in continuity with the dragons whose sorcerer spellcasting ability she is matching-and-exceeding.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Sure, let's go with that tweak as you suggest but not "waste" sorc spells known with cleric spells she can cast anyway, unless we think she really needs to be able to cast a lot of a certain spell.

For sorc spells known, are we ok with
1st level -- protection from law, ray of enfeeblement, shield, true strike, unseen servant
2nd level -- blindness/deafness, cat's grace, detect thoughts, hideous laughter, mirror image
? I made the change to protection from law at 1st level. Though that one is a duplicate with cleric casting. I'm not sure what to do about that. I don't like burning the slot but do find it thematically appropriate.

For domain spells, I think I'd mostly steer away from the Destruction, Earth, Evil, and Fire domains, since they don't seem quite right. And I'd probably mostly choose from the Chaos and Trickery domains. That sound reasonable?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Sure, let's go with that tweak as you suggest but not "waste" sorc spells known with cleric spells she can cast anyway, unless we think she really needs to be able to cast a lot of a certain spell.
Updating the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

For sorc spells known, are we ok with
1st level -- protection from law, ray of enfeeblement, shield, true strike, unseen servant
2nd level -- blindness/deafness, cat's grace, detect thoughts, hideous laughter, mirror image
? I made the change to protection from law at 1st level. Though that one is a duplicate with cleric casting. I'm not sure what to do about that. I don't like burning the slot but do find it thematically appropriate.
If we want to give her a lot of protection from evil spell use why not simply move it from 3/day to at-will in her Spell Like Abilities?

At the moment her SLAs just match those of her "component dragons" so it wouldn't hurt to give her at least some differences.

For domain spells, I think I'd mostly steer away from the Destruction, Earth, Evil, and Fire domains, since they don't seem quite right. And I'd probably mostly choose from the Chaos and Trickery domains. That sound reasonable?
I wouldn't get too stuck on that idea and just go for spells that seem generally useful provided they aren't too wildly inappropriate.

How about doing the at-will protection from law SLA tweak previously mentioned and give her entropic shield instead as a 1st-level sorcerer spell? That causes the caster to glow "with a chaotic blast of multicolored hues" which seems thematic for the Dragon of Chaos.

The second level spells are a sound selection so we can leave those as-is:

1st level -- entropic shield, ray of enfeeblement, shield, true strike, unseen servant
2nd level -- blindness/deafness, cat's grace, detect thoughts, hideous laughter, mirror image
 

Cleon

Adventurer
By the way, I finally got around to completing the Hu Lung (Fox Dragon) Homebrew that I started literally years ago.

It's so old the thread got shifted out of the Creature Catalog Homebrew forum to the General Tabletop Discussion forum during the "Great Enworld Database hiccup".
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Back to the conversion:

At will protection from law SLA and your proposed 1st and 2nd level sorc spells work for me, though I still don't see why she should "waste" a sorc spell known on a spell she can already cast as a cleric (entropic shield). Would color spray or hypnotism work instead?
3rd level -- arcane sight, lightning bold, major image, sleet storm ??
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Back to the conversion:

At will protection from law SLA and your proposed 1st and 2nd level sorc spells work for me
Updating the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft with the SLA change and 2nd-level spells.

, though I still don't see why she should "waste" a sorc spell known on a spell she can already cast as a cleric (entropic shield). Would color spray or hypnotism work instead?
I don't care for those alternates since they both have HD limits that are low enough to render them of little use to an epic-level creature.

Also, I'd prefer to keep the defensive function that entropic shield offers - so how about mage armor?

3rd level -- arcane sight, lightning bold, major image, sleet storm ??
Hmm… arcane sight and major image are fine by me. Presumably the "lightning bold" is meant to be lightning bolt - that and sleet storm don't seem terribly effective choices.

I would go for a couple from detect magic, displacement, stinking cloud and haste or slow.

Of those, I like displacement and haste, so would you be amenable to arcane sight, displacement, haste, major image?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Mage Armor is fine; I guess an extra +4 AC never hurts.

Your proposed 3rd level spells sound good to me.

4th level: black tentatcles, crushing despair, dimensional anchor, greater invisibility ??
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Mage Armor is fine; I guess an extra +4 AC never hurts.

Your proposed 3rd level spells sound good to me.
Good!

4th level: black tentatcles, crushing despair, dimensional anchor, greater invisibility ??
Those are fine by me, except I prefer "tentacles" to "tentatcles".

Updating the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

For the 5th-level spells, I was thinking feeblemind, mind fog, mirage arcana, wall of force.

I did consider prying eyes instead of mirage arcana and would be happy to swap them if you prefer the eyes.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
No, I think I like mirage arcana better for her. Just seems more "chaotic" somehow.

3 at 6th level. How about greater dispel magic, true seeing, and maybe symbol of fear?
 

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