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Converting True Dragons

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
That looks good for 4th level. I could go for 300 ft telepathy.

5th: break enchantment, dispel law, fire shield (D), greater command, mass cure light wounds, mass inflict light wounds, scrying, true seeing ??
 

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Cleon

Adventurer
That looks good for 4th level. I could go for 300 ft telepathy.

Updating Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

5th: break enchantment, dispel law, fire shield (D), greater command, mass cure light wounds, mass inflict light wounds, scrying, true seeing ??

Hmm… I'm not sure about fire shield. She's already immune to cold and fire damage so it just does a bit of energy damage, which isn't terribly useful at her CR. How about the Trickery domain's false vision instead?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Sure, false vision will be fine.

6th: animate objects, forbiddance, geas/quest, harm, heal, mass eagle's splendor, mislead (D)
Not sure what I think about all of these, but the 6th level choices are somehow not too inspiring. We could swap out something for blade barrier, though.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Sure, false vision will be fine.

Updating Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

You know I'm having second thoughts about the 5th level mass cure/inflict wounds spells although I guess 1d8+20 healing is not to be sneered at that amount is barely a tickle to a CR-appropriate threat (if they're that fragile she'd have just breath weapon'd them out of existence). So maybe raise dead/slay living make more sense if we want to stick to the "theme"?

6th: animate objects, forbiddance, geas/quest, harm, heal, mass eagle's splendor, mislead (D)
Not sure what I think about all of these, but the 6th level choices are somehow not too inspiring. We could swap out something for blade barrier, though.

I'd swap blade barrier for geas/quest since it seems the most situational, although I considered mass eagle's splendor as an alternative I believe Pearl often hangs with a coterie of dragons who might appreciate that spell.

Actually, how about undeath to death instead of harm if you want to do something interesting? Pearl can easily do 150 hit points of damage at touch range via many other means, including plain old natural weapons. I'd also consider heroes' feast instead of animate objects. She can only animate 20 HD of animated objects, such as a CR 7 Gargantuan and a CR 3 one, although I guess at least those are better than the 6th-level list options from summon monster VI. I think we'd better leave her with a heal spell though.

So either:

6th: animate objects, blade barrier, forbiddance, heal, mass eagle's splendor, misleadᴰ, undeath to death;

or:

6th: blade barrier, forbiddance, heal, heroes' feast, mass eagle's splendor, misleadᴰ, undeath to death;

Note there's no limitation on what creatures can participate in a heroes' feast. I liked the idea of Pearl sitting around a giant table eating, drinking and gossiping with her "girl pal" dragons. :cool:
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Let's go with the 2nd choice, I like the logic for that.

At 7th level, I'd probably go with spell turning for the domain spell, since it's not a cleric spell otherwise and isn't one of her SLAs. For the other five spells, what about destruction, ethereal jaunt, greater restoration, greater scrying, regenerate? Oddly, I don't find most of the 7th level spells very inspiring/appropriate, except for the ones she already has as SLAs.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Let's go with the 2nd choice, I like the logic for that.

Updating Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

At 7th level, I'd probably go with spell turning for the domain spell, since it's not a cleric spell otherwise and isn't one of her SLAs. For the other five spells, what about destruction, ethereal jaunt, greater restoration, greater scrying, regenerate? Oddly, I don't find most of the 7th level spells very inspiring/appropriate, except for the ones she already has as SLAs.

Well ethereal jaunt seems seems pretty useless for someone who has both astral projection and plane shift as at-will SLAs. How about we replace that with repulsion, which is very handy for keeping riff-raff like wannabe dragon slayer adventurers at a distance. Failing that, control weather or refuge are flavourful alternatives although they have little utility in a fight.

The rest of those are acceptable, including the choice from her Domain Spells selection, although I'd also be happy with screen for the latter.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Argh, I'm just having a hard time keeping track of all her SLAs, etc. Repulsion is fine. Let's keep spell turning for the domain spell and remember screen for her arcane casting.

Thoughts on 8th level? Antimagic field, dimensional lock, earthquake, firestorm, maybe symbol of insanity sound reasonable to me. Maybe polymorph any object for the domain spell, or perhaps incendiary cloud?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Argh, I'm just having a hard time keeping track of all her SLAs, etc. Repulsion is fine. Let's keep spell turning for the domain spell and remember screen for her arcane casting.

Updating Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

Thoughts on 8th level? Antimagic field, dimensional lock, earthquake, firestorm, maybe symbol of insanity sound reasonable to me. Maybe polymorph any object for the domain spell, or perhaps incendiary cloud?

Let's see, she already has cloak of chaos as an SLA or I'd throw that in.

I propose greater spell immunity should be in there. Immunity to five specified spells is very useful.

Let's see, antimagic field and dimensional lock are great utility spells.

For the domain spell I'd prefer polymorph any object both because it feels apt for a Chaotic creature and it has way more versatility than the plain 4d6 damage per round of incendiary cloud.

Frankly, that damage is pathetic for an 8th level 20 ft. radius spell. Any mobile creature can usually just walk out of it within a round so the ongoing damage is of limited utility. It either needs to do more damage, have some napalm like "sticky quality" so that it continues to damage targets who leave its area of effect, or cover a vast area to make it useful for crisping armies of mooks.

Now where was I? That's four spells so far.

Don't care for symbol of insanity due to its 10 minute casting time - it's impossible to use in combat and once set it lasts until triggered so there's nothing to prevent Pearl placing them weeks, months or centuries in advance.

How about greater planar ally instead? There are plenty of potent outsiders with 18 HD or less (i.e. the Marilith & Planetar from the SRD which have potent magic for their low HD).

I'd accept firestorm since I can't think of anything I like better, since 20d6 fire damage over forty 10-ft. cubes is tolerably effective. Although it might be more efficient using her 7th level domain slot for that instead (since it's in Pearl's Fire Domain). Come to think of it, earthquake is a 7th level Domain spell for her as well.

So that makes my proposed 8th level cleric spell selection antimagic field, dimensional lock, fire storm, greater planar ally, greater spell immunity, polymorph any objectᴰ;
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I noticed a couple of issues with the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

The most minor was the "luck bonus" in her Special Qualities had somehow got put in her immunities rather than be a separate ability as it should have been.

That's been fixed.

The other issue is I couldn't remember for sure how we are sorting the greater/mass spells' names.

In some entries it was sorted to ignore the prefix* (i.e. the SLAs had "locate object, greater teleport" while in others it included the prefix in the alphabetization (i.e. "greater teleport, locate object").

*It's not technically a prefix since the greater/mass is a separate adjective, but you get the idea and it helps distinguish it from spells whose names begin with adjectives that don't affect the sorting (like, say, sympathetic vibration - an SRD spell I'd forgotten even existed!).

Presumably "dropping the prefix" sorting was done because published spell lists use the format "SPELL, greater" or "SPELL, mass" in order to keep them grouped together (i.e. "teleport, greater" directly follows "teleport").

Examples in published sources go both ways, or sometimes forget and jumble the order but I'd like us to be consistent!

I've udated the Working Draft to be all-alphabetized since that's what we've been using with the recent spell selection posts, but it'd be simple enough to switch to prefix-ignoring-alphabetized.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I'd be happy with that 8th level spell list.

I prefer putting the "greater" spells under the letter "g" as well.

9th level -- time stop[D], mass heal, miracle, soul bind, storm of vengeance, true resurrection ??
Not a lot of choices for this many spell slots!
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I'd be happy with that 8th level spell list.

I prefer putting the "greater" spells under the letter "g" as well.

Updating the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

Oh, I added a couple of links to her Domain Spell Options because I was was fed up having to hunt through this thread to find it every time we updated her spell selection!

9th level -- time stop[D], mass heal, miracle, soul bind, storm of vengeance, true resurrection ??
Not a lot of choices for this many spell slots!

Well time stop is a definite yes and mass heal plus miracle are all-around useful but the remaining three are rather circumstantial.

A storm of vengeance can inconvenience Pearl or her allies as much as her foes and takes a while to kick in (many epic-level combats only last a few rounds). The spell disruption ability might prove to be more useful than the damage! Besides, she's got 2/day control weather on her SLA list if she just wanted to whip up some bad weather. Overall I'd rather swap it for a more direct offensive spell, such as energy drain or implosion, or just a second miracle. Of the two, implosion's more immediately nasty and is on her Domain Lists so I'd go for that one.

The soul bind I can see her using quite often - creatures of her rank often have to deal "permanently" with immortal entities.

A true resurrection is the only way for her to revive a fallen outsider ally so is tempting. The 10 minute casting time is the only real disadvantage, but I wonder how often she's going to need to true resurrect an ally TODAY rather than have the day's grace she'd need to reprepare her cleric spell selection? Also, she can resurrect people with miracle by duplicating regular resurrection - and come to think of it, she could presumably spend 5,000 XP requesting an "especially powerful" miracle to duplicate true resurrection too - one of the example possibilities is even "raising fallen allies to continue fighting". So maybe swap it for a second miracle?

So that presents three sets of alternatives:

#1: mass heal, miracle (×2), soul bind, time stopᴰ, storm of vengeance.

#2: mass heal, miracle (×2), soul bind, time stopᴰ, [energy drain OR implosion OR true resurrection].

#3 (): [energy drain OR implosion] mass heal, miracle, soul bind, time stopᴰ, true resurrection.

Do either of those appeal to you?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Let's look behind door #2 for implosion, please!

I think that means we're ready to go back to the arcane spells. We have a little bit of redundancy with dimensional lock in the cleric spells and dimensional anchor in the arcane. Want to swap the anchor out?

At 6th level, I kind of like legend lore or analyze dweomer; those just always seem appropriate for dragon types who stereotypically love their treasure. We could also put antimagic field here and replace it in the cleric spells, but maybe there are evocations or something in the sorc/wiz spells --- I see a lot of potentially fun spells at this level.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Let's look behind door #2 for implosion, please!

Updating the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

I think that means we're ready to go back to the arcane spells. We have a little bit of redundancy with dimensional lock in the cleric spells and dimensional anchor in the arcane. Want to swap the anchor out?

They may be somewhat redundant but they have very different application. Pearl would use lock to deny dimensional travel to a fixed area for almost three weeks, but it'd be of little utility against creatures able to step outside its 20-foot emanation. By comparison, anchor is what you use to stop an enemy fleeing via dimensional travel since (at the very least) they'll have to dispel the magic rather than simply move a bit to escape its effect.

I'd rather keep them both.

At 6th level, I kind of like legend lore or analyze dweomer; those just always seem appropriate for dragon types who stereotypically love their treasure.

Yes, we're kind of spoiled for choice with the arcane spells, especially as Pearl can pick ones from the Cleric List as well as Sorcerer/Wizard.

She does have sorcerer casting though, so Pearl'll be stuck with whatever we pick for her. Unless I can bring you round to my "each Aspect can have a different Sorcerer spell selection" proposal!

As for legend lore and analyze dweomer she only has three six-level slots so I'd rather reserve them for generally or universally useful spells. She can always emulate a spell with limited wish (a 7th-level "universally useful" sorcerer spells).

We could also put antimagic field here and replace it in the cleric spells, but maybe there are evocations or something in the sorc/wiz spells --- I see a lot of potentially fun spells at this level.

Yes, swapping antimagic field is a good idea since the cleric version is two levels higher but otherwise identical.

The only problem is, what spell to exchange it for – for a combat option I'd go for summon monster VIII since a Fiendish Dire Tiger or Colossal Monstrous Centipede out of nowhere can be a handy distraction and flanking ally, as can a Greater Elemental; for a utility option I'd favour discern location. They both can be emulated with miracle of course, being 8th level cleric spells.

Getting back to the Three Arcane Sixes, how about antimagic field, contingency and maybe an illusion spell such as veil or permanent image? Assuming we do swap the field.
 
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Cleon

Adventurer
Getting back to the Three Arcane Sixes, how about antimagic field, contingency and maybe an illusion spell such as veil or permanent image? Assuming we do swap the field.

Come to think of it, Pearl can only have one contingency running at a time so that may be a waste of a slot as she can sub limited wish.

Maybe make that BOTH permanent illusion and veil or see if there are any 6th-level cleric spells that'd be really handy to cast frequently.

Like, say heal.

Actually, multiple potential heals are potentially very useful, so maybe swap that for, say antilife shell, in her cleric selection and make the sorcerer selection antimagic field, heal, permanent image or veil?

As for legend lore and analyze dweomer she only has three six-level slots so I'd rather reserve them for generally or universally useful spells. She can always emulate a spell with limited wish (a 7th-level "universally useful" sorcerer spells).

Come to think of it, doesn't the common dragon ability of "can cast cleric spells as arcane spells" mean she can cast limited wish and duplicate any cleric spell of 6th level or lower she's allowed to use?

I did say that spell's a universally useful pick!
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
So is this your proposal?
Sorc 6th: antimagic field, heal,veil (or maybe permanent image)
Replace heal in cleric 6th with antilife shell
Replace antimagic field in cleric 8th with perhaps summon monster VIII
Make sure sorc 7th includes limited wish

I could go for that.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
So is this your proposal?
Sorc 6th: antimagic field, heal,veil (or maybe permanent image)
Replace heal in cleric 6th with antilife shell
Replace antimagic field in cleric 8th with perhaps summon monster VIII
Make sure sorc 7th includes limited wish

I could go for that.

She's got greater planar ally, does Pearl really need summon monsters VIII as the antimagic substitute? I guess not having to pay 500 XP is nice but she's an NPC so I doubt that'd be bothered with in actual play!

Maybe earthquake?

Come to think of it, programmed image makes way more sense than permanent image - I have no idea what I was thinking!

That'd make it:

Sorceror Spells
6th—antimagic field, heal, veil [or antimagic field, heal, programmed image]

Cleric Spells
6th—antilife shell, blade barrier, forbiddance, heroes' feast, mass eagle's splendor, misleadᴰ, undeath to death;
8th—dimensional lock, earthquake, fire storm, greater planar ally, greater spell immunity, polymorph any objectᴰ;
 

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