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Converting True Dragons

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
What about
8th - greater shadow evocation, mass charm monster, mind blank
9th - shades, shapechange, weird
?
 

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Cleon

Adventurer
What about
8th - greater shadow evocation, mass charm monster, mind blank
9th - shades, shapechange, weird
?

Yes, I can go along with that. Having both wish and miracle is a little redundant.

Updating Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

I think that's all the special abilities finished, so it's time for Skills & Feats.

For comparison of other divine-level dragons we have:

Bahamut [HD 53, Int 35]
Skills and Feats: Bluff +68, Concentration +70, Diplomacy +80, Disguise +68, Escape Artist +56, Gather Information +68, Intimidate +74, Knowledge (arcana) +68, Knowledge (history) +68, Knowledge (nature) +68, Knowledge (the planes) +68, Knowledge (religion) +68, Listen +71, Search +68, Sense Motive +69, Spellcraft +74, Spot +71, Survival +69; Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Expertise, Fly-By Attack, Greater Spell Penetration, Hover, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (sunburst), Snatch, Spell Penetration, Wingover.

Gruaghlothor (Enworld CC)[HD 48, Int 32]
Skills and Feats: Appraise +62, Bluff +62, Concentration +40, Diplomacy +62, Disguise +45 (+51 acting), Gather Information +62, Intimidate +64, Jump +58, Knowledge (arcana) +62, Knowledge (geography) +62, Knowledge (history) +62, Knowledge (the planes) +62, Listen +64, Search +62, Sense Motive +62, Spellcraft +68 (+74 scrolls), Spot +64, Survival +31 (+37 on other planes, +37 to avoid getting lost, +37 following tracks), Use Magic Device +62; Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Fly-By Attack, Hover, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-like Ability (wall of iron), Snatch, Wingover

Sardior [HD 52, Int 33]
Skills and Feats: Appraise +74, Balance +16, Bluff +67, Climb +69, Concentration +56, Diplomacy +65, Disguise +50, Escape Artist +39, Gather Information +57, Hide +53, Innuendo +62, Intimidate +25, Jump +66, Knowledge (nature) +47, Knowledge (psionics) +47, Knowledge (the planes) +47, Listen +56, Perform +47, Psicraft +57, Read Lips +42, Remote View +52, Search +57, Sense Motive +54, Spot +56, Swim +69, Tumble +37, Wilderness Lore +54; Alertness, Cleave, Devastating Critical (claw [DC 55]), Flyby Attack, Great Cleave, Hover, Improve Critical (claw), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Overwhelming Critical (claw), Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (claw), and Wingover.

Tiamat [HD 49, Int 28]
Skills and Feats: Bluff +61, Concentration +64, Diplomacy +69, Gather Information +61, Intimidate +65, Knowledge (arcana) +61, Knowledge (history) +61, Knowledge (religion) +61, Knowledge (the planes) +61, Listen +61, Search +61, Sense Motive +59, Spellcraft +65, Spot +61, Survival +59; Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Expertise, Fly-By Attack, Greater Spell Penetration, Hover, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, Quicken Spell Penetration, Spell-Like Ability (domination), Snatch, Wingover.

Our girl has 48 Hit Dice and Intelligence 31, for sixteen maxed-out skills and seventeen feats.

For skills I like Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), (history), (religion), (the planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Tumble, Use Magic Device. That's nineteen skills so some of them will have to be short of SP. If we half-rank the Appraise, Disguise and Knowledge Skills that'll leave enough SPs to max-rank the others.

Will we be giving her any Epic Feats? Both the officially published Sardior and the last high-CR dragons we converted, Rahab the Grey Dragon, are Epiced Up with the Devastating Critical feat chain, so we have precedent.

I'd be fine just giving her Dire Charge and sixteen non-Epic feats, but there are a bunch of others such as Superior Initiative and Automatic Quicken Spell that are extremely tempting (and very unbalanced for the Auto metamagic feats!).

I'm tempted to give her Chaotic Mind as a feat just 'cause its "chaotic", but it's a bit circumstantial since it only works if there's psionics in a campaign.

Hmm… Dire Charge [?], Flyby Attack, Hover, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Critical (bite)[or claw?], Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (up to 6th level spell), Snatch, Spell Penetration, Wingover would be a decent foundation, which leaves another six feats.

Any ideas/preferences for those?
 


freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I like your proposed skills. (And thanks for clarifying the Mystaran Amber references.)

Let's start with those feats and add Superior Init, Quicken Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell x2 (she really has to take something unfair like this), Multiattack, and one more. Leadership isn't really right, but it feels thematically right. Same with Chaotic Mind, like you mentioned. Something like Combat Casting could work, but I'm not sure how useful it is given her high Concentration bonus already. Is there another metamagic feat you like?

Incidentally, I'm sure you're planning on it, but we can't forget to make her natural weapons chaotic-aligned for the purposes of overcoming DR!
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I like your proposed skills. (And thanks for clarifying the Mystaran Amber references.)

Okay, so that'd be:

Skill Mods (816 SPs): Appraise 26+10int, Balance 0+0dex+6synTu, Bluff 51+11cha, Concentration 51+12con, Diplomacy 51+11cha+12synBl/SM, Disguise 26+11cha (+6synBl acting), Gather Information 51+11cha, Intimidate 51+11cha+6synBl, Jump 0+19str+6synTu+12spd, Knowledge (arcana) 25+10int, (history) 25+10int, (nature) 1+10int+6synSu, (religion) 25+10int, (the planes) 25+10int, Listen 51+10wis, Search 51+10int, Sense Motive 51+10wis, Spellcraft 51+10int+4synKn (+6synUMD decipher scrolls), Spot 51+10wis, Survival 51+10wis (+4synKn aboveground & on other planes), Tumble 51+0dex, Use Magic Device 51+11cha (+6synSC with scrolls)

The half-SPs meant one of the Knowledge skills would have an odd point, so I gave her a point in Know (nature) so she qualified for the Survival synergy.

Which makes:

Skills: Appraise +36, Balance +6, Bluff +62, Concentration +63, Diplomacy +74, Disguise +37 (+33 acting), Gather Information +62, Intimidate +68, Jump +37, Knowledge (arcana) +35, Knowledge (history) +35, Knowledge (nature) +17, Knowledge (religion) +35, Knowledge (the planes) +35, Listen +61, Search +61, Sense Motive +61, Spellcraft +65 (+71 decipher scrolls), Spot 51+10wis, Survival +61 (+65 aboveground, +65 on other planes), Tumble +51, Use Magic Device +62 (+68 with scrolls)

Let's start with those feats and add Superior Init, Quicken Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell x2 (she really has to take something unfair like this), Multiattack, and one more. Leadership isn't really right, but it feels thematically right. Same with Chaotic Mind, like you mentioned. Something like Combat Casting could work, but I'm not sure how useful it is given her high Concentration bonus already. Is there another metamagic feat you like?

If we're giving her double AutoQuicken Spell I'd be inclined to remove the Quicken SLA in favour of a third AQS just for the extra munchkinness of quickened miracles and weirds.

Combat Casting seems a bit useless, as does Chaotic Mind so I'd drop them. Neither Bahamut or Tiamat have the Leadership feat in their 3E versions and they've got piles of followers so it seems surplus to give our girl that feat.

Feats: Automatic Quicken Spell×3, Dire Charge, Flyby Attack, Hover, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Snatch, Spell Penetration, Superior Initiative, Wingover PLUS ONE

For the remaining one, if you'd rather it be spell-related I'd prefer Spell Focus over a Metamagic feat. We've already assigned all her spells and I don't fancy going through her cleric list to decide what, if any, to Metamagic!

Contrariwise, we could balance her selection out a bit with another combat feat such as Improved Critical (claw) or Improved Multiattack.

Any preferences?

Incidentally, I'm sure you're planning on it, but we can't forget to make her natural weapons chaotic-aligned for the purposes of overcoming DR!

I'll make sure to edit that in while updating the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft with the above.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
The skills are good (but I think it should be +43 acting under Disguise), as are the feats. Let's go with Imp Multiattack for the last one.

Languages: Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal, anything else?

Triple Standard treasure seems appropriate.

Shouldn't Organization also have her retinue of lesser but still quite impressive dragons?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
The skills are good (but I think it should be +43 acting under Disguise), as are the feats. Let's go with Imp Multiattack for the last one.

Yes, it should be acting +33. Must have clicked the adjacent digit on my keyboard.

Languages: Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal, anything else?

That seems a bit few.

With an Intelligence of 31 wouldn't she have ten bonus languages?

Triple Standard treasure seems appropriate.

That's fine by me!

Updating the Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

Shouldn't Organization also have her retinue of lesser but still quite impressive dragons?

Good point we should. I'm inclined to leave in "Solitary" on the offchance she decides to do something on her own.

Spelling out all nine dragons in the full train would make the Organisation a bit bulky:

Organization #1: Solitary, retinue (1 plus 4 great wyrm Mystaran amber dragons) or traveling court (1 plus 4 great wyrm Amber dragons, 1 great wyrm black dragon, 1 great wyrm brass dragon, 1 great wyrm copper dragon, 1 great wyrm red dragon and 1 great wyrm white dragon)

Let's see:

Organization #2: Solitary, retinue (1 plus 4 great wyrm Mystaran amber dragons) or traveling court (1 plus 4 great wyrm Amber dragons, and 1 great wyrm black dragon, brass dragon, copper dragon, red dragon & white dragon)

I'm sure that can be shorter, how about:

Organization #3: Solitary, retinue (1 plus 4 great wyrm Mystaran amber dragons) or traveling court (1 plus 9 great wyrm dragons [4 Mystaran Amber great wyrms plus a black, brass, copper, red & white great wyrm])

or:

Organization #4: Solitary, retinue (1 plus 4 great wyrm Mystaran amber dragons) or traveling court (1 plus 4 great wyrm Mystaran Amber dragons, plus a great wyrm black, brass, copper, red, and white dragon)

Hmm, I'm leaning towards #4.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
We could just give her all the SRD languages! It doesn't seem super flavorful, but sure.

I like organization #4.

Any thoughts on combat tactics? She has a lot of options!
 

Cleon

Adventurer
We could just give her all the SRD languages! It doesn't seem super flavorful, but sure.

How about we just use the same formula as the Dragon Magazine 3E versions of Bahamut & Tiamat?

Dragon #272 said:
Tiamat speaks many languages, including Draconic, Infernal, Ignan, and Common, though she can converse with any intelligent creature.

Bahamut speaks many languages, including Draconic, Celestial, Auran, and Common, though he can converse with any intelligent creature.

I'd go for:

Pearl speaks many languages, including Draconic, Abyssal, Celestial, and Common, though she can converse with any intelligent creature.

I like organization #4.

Updating Pearl the Moon Dragon Working Draft.

Any thoughts on combat tactics? She has a lot of options!

Too many options to cover properly, so I'd tend to keep it fairly vague. How about:

As befits her chaotic nature, Pearl is highly unpredictable in combat. Her incredible mind and eons of experience mean her her tactics should always be inventive and effective even if her actions seem random. She enjoys melee combat, and her Dire Charge and Automatic Quicken Spell feats allow her to make a full attack and cast a quickened spell every round.
 

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