Level Up (A5E) Convince me of A5E

[lichmaster]

Original 5E, though easy to grasp, became quickly boring to me, because of several reasons:

• not many options to customize a class beyond the choice of one of 3 archetypes, each with not so many trait
• combat options are very limited
• many advantages get cancelled by only one disadvantage (and vice versa) instead of the amount simply being distracted
• skill checks are inflexible (static attribute/skill) with no true mechanics to ad hoc bonus/malus
• feats too limited, only one every 4 levels and for that you even have to forfeit the attribute raise
• proficiency raise very slow (at level 20 only +4 higher than on level 1)

Those are my major gripes that come to my mind at the moment. Coming from 14 years of 3.X I do not mind simplifications but to me, they dumbed down too much.
Pathfinder 2e, though being the D20 pinnacle when coming to customizations, can become bloated from mid level up.
Now I am curious, could Level Up be the remedy for my ailments?

Instead of trying to convice you about A5E I'd first ask you why you're interesting in changing from 3.5 if it has worked so well for you so far: what are you looking for?

 

[Belisarion]

Instead of trying to convice you about A5E I'd first ask you why you're interesting in changing from 3.5 if it has worked so well for you so far: what are you looking for?

A good question! 3.5 became very bloated and you had to plan your feats ahead in detail. It was very laborious to GM and fights could literally drag on for hours. Don't misunderstand me, I loved it and still do. But being a father of three, the spare time is more limited so for that 3.5 is not the perfect fit.
As I also love AD&D (played 2nd edition around 11 years before 3.0 came out and we switched) I approve the initial idea of 5E to mix AD&D and 3.X but they went to far for my taste and simplified it too much. I also tried PF2 but as it was fun as a player it can be overwhelming for very young players and GMs alike.
I aim for a system this has a bit more meat than 5E but still can be used for ad hoc sessions without much prep time. My hope is that A5E could fill that gaps.
W.O.I.N. is a system I'm delving into primarily for my modern and scifi itches. But the fantasy parts look very promising as well. As I mostly played in the Forgotten Realms and some PlaneScape, D&D (minus 4e, never could warm up to it) always was the natural fit for it. W.O.I.N. might become that in the future but it lacks something like a Monster Manual and as spare time for prepping is rather limited I hoped a "better" version of 5E could do the trick in the meantime.

 

[Corinnguard]

flanking gives an expertise die in a5e, not advantage.

I forgot that flanking gives you an advantage only in 5e, not A5e.

 

[lichmaster]

A good question! 3.5 became very bloated and you had to plan your feats ahead in detail. It was very laborious to GM and fights could literally drag on for hours. Don't misunderstand me, I loved it and still do. But being a father of three, the spare time is more limited so for that 3.5 is not the perfect fit.
As I also love AD&D (played 2nd edition around 11 years before 3.0 came out and we switched) I approve the initial idea of 5E to mix AD&D and 3.X but they went to far for my taste and simplified it too much. I also tried PF2 but as it was fun as a player it can be overwhelming for very young players and GMs alike.
I aim for a system this has a bit more meat than 5E but still can be used for ad hoc sessions without much prep time. My hope is that A5E could fill that gaps.
W.O.I.N. is a system I'm delving into primarily for my modern and scifi itches. But the fantasy parts look very promising as well. As I mostly played in the Forgotten Realms and some PlaneScape, D&D (minus 4e, never could warm up to it) always was the natural fit for it. W.O.I.N. might become that in the future but it lacks something like a Monster Manual and as spare time for prepping is rather limited I hoped a "better" version of 5E could do the trick in the meantime.

Ok, so your path and mine are very similar indeed: I also played 2E for a very long time, than switched to 3.X and stayed there for a long while. I loved it, but eventually the bloat became way too laborious to handle, and fights could drag on for hours. I skipped 4E entirely, then started 5E and really enjoyed it: DMing it is a breeze, fights are way faster, etc.
5e has some aspects I don't like too

• customizability is good but could be improved (I actually detested the stupid number of prestige classes and feats i 3.5). I'm ok with how feats are few but quite powerful in 5e and prefer getting a feat than reaching 20 in an attribute
• there's no real guidance for magic items creation and pricing
• official monsters and some spells are broken against their own guidelines.
• encounter building guidelines are vague and often useless if not harmful
• combat is fast but easily repetitive, especially for martials and most melee monsters
• strongholds are not even mentioned
• very limited weapon properties etc

A5E is a straight up upgrade wrt 5e in all these aspects and many others. There's layers upon layers of greater customizability, combat is way more tactical and interesting, weapons and armors have meaningful differences, monsters are interesting and way more balanced, encounters have quite a more predictable difficulty, etc.

Still, it has to be compatible with 5E, so some aspects couldn't be changed:

• attributes are still capped at 30 no matter what, and normally characters cannot get an attribute above 20, although you can get to 22 if you get the right stronghold (without magic or special class features)
• advantage and disadvantage work the same way. I like this as I hated tracking down every source of bonus in 3.5, but I agree that it's a big sacrifice in granularity. A5E introduces expertise die, which are added on top of a roll, and while they are not as granular as 3.X circumstance modifiers they are a decent compromise IMO. I'd personally suggest not stack sources of advantage and disadvantage as it would create a race to get those additional sources, halting the game to a grind
• bounded accuracy is preserved, so you won't see a character going from a +1 to a +20 modifier in 20 levels. This can be hard to accept at first for a 3.X veteran, but it's actually a good thing. Characters are differentiated by their features, feats, spells and equipments, not by their "+X" to action Y. You don't need to be concerned that some rolls will be utterly impossible for some characters and absolutely trivial for others, albeit there will be situations in which the difference in chances between characters can be very wide.

So, if you're expecting LU to be closer to 3.X than 5E in those fundamental aspects, it's not, and that's due to compatibility issues. If you're mostly ok with 5e but want something more customizable and reliable, then I'd say it's definitely for you.

Regarding WOIN, I absolutely love the system and I think it's definitely worth a shot for every D&D player. It's a very different system with incredible customizability due to its modular design. It may address all your concerns as:

• the classless design means you can mix and match pretty much everything, and purchase individual exploits as you like
• combat is very tactical and positional
• there are several modifiers which do stack, adding or removing to the dice pool you throw
• you can willingly take a penalty on some rolls to get additional benefits should you succeed
• skill and attribute checks are freeform
• the power curve of characters is unbounded, although there's diminishing returns.

There's quite a bit of material for it, thanks to EONS, although no official material was released for almost 2 years. This hopefully will change as the Starter Set was released a few days ago. I really hope for a WOIN resurgence, and I'm eager to give it a try with my group.

 

[Corinnguard]

combat options are very limited

One thing that A5e has done with regards to combat options is the introduction of Combat Traditions and Combat Maneuvers for the martial classes (Adept, Berserker, Fighter, Herald, Marshall, Ranger, and Rogue). In 5e, the only ways you could perform Combat Maneuvers was to either pick up the Martial Adept feat or to be a Fighter (Battlemaster). And there was only one list of Combat Maneuvers to choose from.

In A5e, there are 14 official Combat Traditions for the martial classes. All of the martial classes with the exception of the Fighter are proficient in at least two Combat Traditions. The Fighter is proficient in three Combat Traditions (2 at 1st level and 1 at 3rd level when you choose your subclass). Instead of using Superiority Die, you spend Exertion points (2* your proficiency bonus). Each Combat Tradition has 15 maneuvers spread across 5 degrees (think spellcasting level).

So the martial classes can do a lot more in terms of combat.

 

[lichmaster]

One thing that A5e has done with regards to combat options is the introduction of Combat Traditions and Combat Maneuvers for the martial classes (Adept, Berserker, Fighter, Herald, Marshall, Ranger, and Rogue). In 5e, the only ways you could perform Combat Maneuvers was to either pick up the Martial Adept feat or to be a Fighter (Battlemaster). And there was only one list of Combat Maneuvers to choose from.

In A5e, there are 14 official Combat Traditions for the martial classes. All of the martial classes with the exception of the Fighter are proficient in at least two Combat Traditions. The Fighter is proficient in three Combat Traditions (2 at 1st level and 1 at 3rd level when you choose your subclass). Instead of using Superiority Die, you spend Exertion points (2* your proficiency bonus). Each Combat Tradition has 15 maneuvers spread across 5 degrees (think spellcasting level).

So the martial classes can do a lot more in terms of combat.

On top of that, there can be synergies with equipment:

• a "crit" build is of course enhanced by using a vicious weapon, that has a lower crit range to begin with, and is not a magic weapon
• there are weapons with a "parry" properties and others with the "defensive" property. Each can be a source of powerful synergies when coupled with the right maneuvers and traditions.

Some classes, subclasses (and in principle heritages and backgrounds) can give you the ability to use a maneuver for a reduced cost (or no cost at all). The fighter has the ability to become a master of all maneuvers for a much greater (and cheaper) effect, and to choose one maneuver he can perform for free.

Basic maneuvers are also a bit reworked, and there's more incentive for positional effects. For instance, being pushed down a cliff won't allow for a save, and there are several ways to forcefully move an opponent closer to the cliff. That could be a particularly effective strategies in some circumstances.
Or you could climb on top of large enemies, which is not easy but gives you advantage.

Ah, also, there's an entire section about vehicles, vehicles combat, their upgrades, maintainance, etc. And combat traditions leveraging mounts. And an archetype of the artificier that specializes on vehicles.

Also, the Marshal can give others the benefits of maneuvers he knows.

Also... you get the point

 

[Corinnguard]

With regards to feats, there are the multiclass synergy feat chains that provide you benefits when you multiclass as two specific classes. For instance, there is the Bladechanter synergy feat chain that requires you to advance 3 levels as a Fighter with the Two-Weapon Fighting style and 3 levels of Wizard. The benefits you get from this particular synergy feat chain are there to make up for perhaps the biggest drawback to multiclassing, the acquisition of certain class/subclass features at a particular level.

Of course, the synergy feat chains have their own little drawback, finding the right pair of subclasses to multiclass with! Since A5e is backwards compatible with some aspects of 5e, you can try to use subclasses from both A5e and 5e. For instance,

Fighter (Bladeseer)/Wizard (Divination)- a melee spellcaster who is several steps ahead of his opponent. You just need to find the right Combat Traditions for this combo.

 

[Belisarion]

Ok, so your path and mine are very similar indeed: I also played 2E for a very long time, than switched to 3.X and stayed there for a long while. I loved it, but eventually the bloat became way too laborious to handle, and fights could drag on for hours. I skipped 4E entirely, then started 5E and really enjoyed it: DMing it is a breeze, fights are way faster, etc.
5e has some aspects I don't like too

• customizability is good but could be improved (I actually detested the stupid number of prestige classes and feats i 3.5). I'm ok with how feats are few but quite powerful in 5e and prefer getting a feat than reaching 20 in an attribute
• there's no real guidance for magic items creation and pricing
• official monsters and some spells are broken against their own guidelines.
• encounter building guidelines are vague and often useless if not harmful
• combat is fast but easily repetitive, especially for martials and most melee monsters
• strongholds are not even mentioned
• very limited weapon properties etc

A5E is a straight up upgrade wrt 5e in all these aspects and many others. There's layers upon layers of greater customizability, combat is way more tactical and interesting, weapons and armors have meaningful differences, monsters are interesting and way more balanced, encounters have quite a more predictable difficulty, etc.

Still, it has to be compatible with 5E, so some aspects couldn't be changed:

• attributes are still capped at 30 no matter what, and normally characters cannot get an attribute above 20, although you can get to 22 if you get the right stronghold (without magic or special class features)
• advantage and disadvantage work the same way. I like this as I hated tracking down every source of bonus in 3.5, but I agree that it's a big sacrifice in granularity. A5E introduces expertise die, which are added on top of a roll, and while they are not as granular as 3.X circumstance modifiers they are a decent compromise IMO. I'd personally suggest not stack sources of advantage and disadvantage as it would create a race to get those additional sources, halting the game to a grind
• bounded accuracy is preserved, so you won't see a character going from a +1 to a +20 modifier in 20 levels. This can be hard to accept at first for a 3.X veteran, but it's actually a good thing. Characters are differentiated by their features, feats, spells and equipments, not by their "+X" to action Y. You don't need to be concerned that some rolls will be utterly impossible for some characters and absolutely trivial for others, albeit there will be situations in which the difference in chances between characters can be very wide.

So, if you're expecting LU to be closer to 3.X than 5E in those fundamental aspects, it's not, and that's due to compatibility issues. If you're mostly ok with 5e but want something more customizable and reliable, then I'd say it's definitely for you.

Regarding WOIN, I absolutely love the system and I think it's definitely worth a shot for every D&D player. It's a very different system with incredible customizability due to its modular design. It may address all your concerns as:

• the classless design means you can mix and match pretty much everything, and purchase individual exploits as you like
• combat is very tactical and positional
• there are several modifiers which do stack, adding or removing to the dice pool you throw
• you can willingly take a penalty on some rolls to get additional benefits should you succeed
• skill and attribute checks are freeform
• the power curve of characters is unbounded, although there's diminishing returns.

There's quite a bit of material for it, thanks to EONS, although no official material was released for almost 2 years. This hopefully will change as the Starter Set was released a few days ago. I really hope for a WOIN resurgence, and I'm eager to give it a try with my group.

As I sold much of my 5E books (including all the core books), only having the A5E stuff suffices? The A5E core books are very affordable on drivethru at the moment, so I couldn't resist and purchased 5 of them. All the you mention applies to me and I can live with those 3 aspect that cannot change to ensure consistency.
I will definitively delve deep into WOIN and it looks it will become my go to system for every genre. But sometimes I need a scratch for my D&D itch.^^

With regards to feats, there are the multiclass synergy feat chains that provide you benefits when you multiclass as two specific classes. For instance, there is the Bladechanter synergy feat chain that requires you to advance 3 levels as a Fighter with the Two-Weapon Fighting style and 3 levels of Wizard. The benefits you get from this particular synergy feat chain are there to make up for perhaps the biggest drawback to multiclassing, the acquisition of certain class/subclass features at a particular level.

Of course, the synergy feat chains have their own little drawback, finding the right pair of subclasses to multiclass with! Since A5e is backwards compatible with some aspects of 5e, you can try to use subclasses from both A5e and 5e. For instance,

Fighter (Bladeseer)/Wizard (Divination)- a melee spellcaster who is several steps ahead of his opponent. You just need to find the right Combat Traditions for this combo.

This sounds like an interesting take on 3.5's prestige classes!

 

[Corinnguard]

This sounds like an interesting take on 3.5's prestige classes!

Synergy Feats | Level Up These are all of the Synergy Feat chains in the Adventurers' Guide.

Lycanthrope Synergy Feats | Level Up If you ever wanted to play a lycanthrope in A5e. These are from the 0# issue of the Gate Pass Gazette.

Synergy Feats for Extraordinary Heroes | Level Up These are modeled after certain characters in Marvel Comics. Gate Pass Gazette #5

They certainly do have a Prestige class-like vibe about them.

 

[lichmaster]

As I sold much of my 5E books (including all the core books), only having the A5E stuff suffices? The A5E core books are very affordable on drivethru at the moment, so I couldn't resist and purchased 5 of them. All the you mention applies to me and I can live with those 3 aspect that cannot change to ensure consistency.

LU is a drop in replacement for 5E, you don't need any core 5e books to run a game. There may be things you like more in 5E, maybe a particular subclass, but normally A5E material is more interesting and versatile

I will definitively delve deep into WOIN and it looks it will become my go to system for every genre. But sometimes I need a scratch for my D&D itch.^^

Same thing here