D&D 5E Convince me to keep reading Princes of the Apocalypse (*significant* spoilers. Also my players keep out)

[Jester David]

Did you read or play Rise of the Runelords?

Yes. See below.

But, the fact remains, four adventures of the AP tie into bad things happening in the small town of 1000+ people in a sparsely populated region that is attacked by goblins [sblock]serial killers, mutant goblins, ghouls, giants, cultists, the sandpoint devil[/sblock], and many more events. A disproportionate amount of bad is happening to a tiny town. And when you start looking at the random encounter tables and other side events happening in and around the town, there is a LOT of dangerous stuff crammed that close to settlement.

Additionally, the adventure banks on the PCs being the heroes and not running to some of the higher level NPCs for help. Like the sheriff (level 4 fighter), Shaelelu (level 6 fighter/ranger), and Ameiko Kaijitsu (level 3 bard/rogue), and letting them handle the threat of the goblins at Thistletop. Or not having the players run off to Magnimar for help against the numerous gathering goblin tribes that can be perceived as outnumbering the PCs. Heck, when investigating the murders in Magnimar, the adventure pretty much assumes the PCs are going to just investigate the high profile murders on their own and not pass their evidence to the local constabulary, despite Sheriff Hemlock already going to them for assistance once.

None of this compromises the quality of the adventure. Because the PCs are heroes and unwilling to "turn their investigation over to the Feds". It's just a common element of adventure design that PCs could get help, but almost never do.

 

[Derren]

People can play however they want. I just have a hard time seeing Conan running to a nearby town to get help instead of trying to deal with it himself.

EDIT: Also, I think we can assume that PotA is written for a small group of PCs to be able to handle. So, they should be the one's saving the day.

Those are purely gamist considerations. Sure, people can and often do turn off any expectations of versimilitude and instead follow the railroad when playing an official adventure, but if they are really in character getting help, or at least informing the next higher authority what is going on, would be one of the first things to do (like sending a rider from Greenest to Baldurs Gate informing them of a dragon attack and raiders close by) unless the PCs are all glory hogs and don't really care about saving lives, etc.

 

[cmad1977]

No.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Your assertion falls well outside of conventional wisdom here, so could you elaborate?

Simulationism is about taking systems seriously, exploring the interactions between them, and expecting internal consistency. If a simulationist finds a gargantuan dragon in a small room in a dungeon below ground, he expects there to be a reason for the dragon's presence, as well as a food source and a reason why the dragon has not left/escaped. Those are setting-related concerns.

On the other hand, people who say D&D as a system isn't compatible with simulationism typically mean that D&D isn't good at simulating real life. They'll point to things like HP and the fact that Earth humans don't recover from broken bones in a matter of weeks or days (depending on edition). Well, that's true, but real life doesn't have binary gravity either. Simulationism is about internal consistency and logic, and as long as you take the system seriously (e.g. HP are fungible, transferrable, and reliable; clearly there's a physical basis) you can have a fun simulationist game in D&D.

D&D physics are different from real physics in any number of ways. It's questionable whether humans are even built out of atoms, let alone possess cell differentiation. Certainly astrophysics is completely different there. Simulationists explore these differences and the implications--as well as the implications of bashing monsters over the head and taking their treasure. Why is all this treasure lying around? Where did it come from? How much of the world's total wealth is tied up in monster hoards? What fraction of mercantile activity gets taken by monsters? What effect on the world economy does constant monster predation exert? Etc., etc.

People who say simulationism doesn't work in D&D show a shallow understanding of simulationist games.

 

[Staffan]

Those are purely gamist considerations. Sure, people can and often do turn off any expectations of versimilitude and instead follow the railroad when playing an official adventure, but if they are really in character getting help, or at least informing the next higher authority what is going on, would be one of the first things to do (like sending a rider from Greenest to Baldurs Gate informing them of a dragon attack and raiders close by) unless the PCs are all glory hogs and don't really care about saving lives, etc.

The Western Heartlands are, quite accurately, described as "miles and miles of miles and miles." Baldur's Gate is about 500 miles away from Greenest. That's about 17 days away even at a fast pace. Berdusk is a lot closer at about 150 miles, but even that is about 5 days at a fast pace - and Berdusk is a lot smaller than Baldur's Gate, and may or may not have the resources to do something about it.

Also, most of the Heartlands (both Western and Eastern) is devoid of large-scale countries - you have Cormyr and Sembia, but other than that it's mostly city-states. Greenest pretty much doesn't have a higher authority than governor Nighthill - 3e FRCS mentions that the town may or may not be sponsored by the Shadow Thieves of Amn, but formally it is an independent entity.

 

[Nellisir]

I haven't picked up PotA because a) I generally don't buy adventure paths, and b) I haven't heard anything particularly notable about this one. However.

"Get someone else" has been a constant critique of FR since the beginning. As a DM, it's just something you have to deal with. At a lower level of "help", it's worth noting that since The North is primarily city-states, they have a pretty limited area of concern and influence. Standing armies are fabulously expensive to maintain for countries, let alone cities, and it's likely that their remit doesn't extend more than 5-10 miles past the city walls. Ivan Lackland didn't sign up for the City Guard to go tramping through the forest for a week, after all. He signed up to guard the city. A much more likely response from middle-management is to wait until the problem is a lot bigger, and a lot closer, and then wake up Khelben or work out an alliance to deal with it. Until that happens, the PCs can just turn themselves around and take care of things themselves.

 

[fba827]

I have not yet read the adventure so take this with a grain of salt, but if "why not go for help" is a concern for your players play style, perhaps change the perspective.....

What if the town did send a rider for help from a nearby big city, and the PCs are mercenaries or officials that were hired/tasked do investigate on behalf of the city and take care of it on the city's behalf.

(After all the city would just see this as a small town on the edge of civilization, and just got arises saying there is trouble... The city isn't going to send its big army folks for that, they're going to send people to investigate md ideally resolve it with low cost / low level representatives and save higher up folks for stuff around the city.....)

Anyway again I haven't read the adventure. It was just a random thought based on the comments I saw here.

 

[Derren]

The Western Heartlands are, quite accurately, described as "miles and miles of miles and miles." Baldur's Gate is about 500 miles away from Greenest. That's about 17 days away even at a fast pace. Berdusk is a lot closer at about 150 miles, but even that is about 5 days at a fast pace - and Berdusk is a lot smaller than Baldur's Gate, and may or may not have the resources to do something about it.

Also, most of the Heartlands (both Western and Eastern) is devoid of large-scale countries - you have Cormyr and Sembia, but other than that it's mostly city-states. Greenest pretty much doesn't have a higher authority than governor Nighthill - 3e FRCS mentions that the town may or may not be sponsored by the Shadow Thieves of Amn, but formally it is an independent entity.

Actually Greenest is a mere 240 miles from Baldurs Gate and Red Larch is about 100 miles to Waterdeep (See http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/images/faerunlarge.jpg) . And don't let the term "City state" fool you. Athens was a city state as was Venice, yet they controlled quite a big empire with powerful armies and certainly cared about what happened a mere 100 - 200 miles away from their primary city.
And that there is a village which is not claimed by anyone and thus does not pay taxes to a higher authority, which has now an interest in protecting it, would be a very strange occurrence.

"Get someone else" has been a constant critique of FR since the beginning. As a DM, it's just something you have to deal with. At a lower level of "help", it's worth noting that since The North is primarily city-states, they have a pretty limited area of concern and influence. Standing armies are fabulously expensive to maintain for countries, let alone cities, and it's likely that their remit doesn't extend more than 5-10 miles past the city walls. Ivan Lackland didn't sign up for the City Guard to go tramping through the forest for a week, after all. He signed up to guard the city. A much more likely response from middle-management is to wait until the problem is a lot bigger, and a lot closer, and then wake up Khelben or work out an alliance to deal with it. Until that happens, the PCs can just turn themselves around and take care of things themselves.

What Ivan Lackland wants it of no concern once he has signed up. With the technology level displayed in the realms and especially considering how powerful trained people can become no one would use peasant levies any more. Nations would either use standing armies or mercenaries, both which do not care to have to march for a week. Sure, that won't save Greenest from the raid, but they could assault the Cult base if they linger too long and scout the area. Most adventure gloss over this, but a raid party has to travel, too and a larger party of kobolds will attract attention.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

I find arguments regarding why PCs in the game world don't go asking the bigwigs to take care of things to be specious and shortsighted from BOTH simulationist AND gamist perspectives. One of the design goals for PotA was very obviously to make the adventure portable to other settings and/or campaigns. It is NOT the job of the designers to make the adventure logical within the context of every possible game world. It is the DM's job. It would be an INCREDIBLE waste of written space and commensurate waste of printing costs for the designers to have devoted pages to such a thing. Pages of description are what it would have taken.

From a simulationist perspective it is impossible to give a non-setting-specific answer as to why the bigwigs aren't available. In the default Forgotten Realms, however, CRAZY things are happening. I haven't personally invested ANY time into reading the FR books and I'm not incredibly familiar with Realms-lore. However, as far as I know: Not one but TWO cataclysms have rocked the realms recently. The factions presented in both the two extent adventure paths and the organized play adventures have leaders who are all very strongly opposed and devoted to killing each other. The Thayans have managed to extend their malign influence ALL over Faerun. The Many-Arrows (Obould's successor kingdom) have become a stable threat last I heard. The Netherese have returned to threaten Faerun...bringing back insane magic, enslaving many...and, oh yeah, now devoted to a deity who wants to destroy creation. The spellplague alone had a variety of deleterious effects on many of those high-level bigwigs. Neverwinter has been destroyed and is being rebuilt in part by individuals of suspicious intent. And the cult of the dragon has been making all sorts of trouble and rousing ancient dragons, one of whom actually lives pretty near to Red Larch (see Kryptgarden forest). I have no idea what insanity the sundering has caused. One of those high-level bigwigs (Laeral Silverhand) just took over leadership of Waterdeep and most probably has her hands full. The Uthgardt tribes still wander around, raiding and pillaging when they feel like it.

Why precisely do you imagine that it's logical for these people to ignore the very real, very dangerous, and established threats so as to focus on an unknown cult with unknown goals making trouble in a lightly populated backwater exactly?

 

[Nellisir]

What Ivan Lackland wants it of no concern once he has signed up.

No, but if Waterdeep has a habit of marching it's Guard into the wilderness, Lackland isn't going to sign up at all.

With the technology level displayed in the realms and especially considering how powerful trained people can become

Ah, the "everyone is leveled" argument.

Nations would either use standing armies or mercenaries, both which do not care to have to march for a week.

No, they're hideously expensive instead.