Core, and Epic magic items

[apesamongus]

Umm...hello? You do realise that the game's Challenge Rating mechanic was balanced around not having free and infinite healing immediately in between each fight, right?

How does the fact that most parties have a non-free yet still nearly infinite healing between each fight differ? CR doesn't take into account in any way that you're spending money on CLW wands. With the exception of being hounded in some way (which would limit the CLW item also), every party is going to be going into every fight fully, or almost fully, healed anyway.

 

[Murazor]

Alignment is an okay restriction, as noted. Race is one I'd shy away from, there's no reason a dwarf CAN'T construct a magic battleaxe for his human friend, nor why an elf CAN'T enchant a pair of boots and a cloak for his half-orc buddy.

It's not that they cannot make such an item, but the fact that the item only works at its maximum effect if its wielder/wearer is of a particular race. (But to be fair, all of these restrictions had better have that particular race be a requirement for its creator. It would be a bit silly if you couldn't use your own creations.)
Besides, even in Core there are items which work differently depending on race, such as a Belt of Dwarvenkind. Give the poor Half-Orc a chance to finally make use of his Orc Blood racial ability

The Berserker enhancement sound like something that a non-Raging user simply wouldn't gain access to, not something that would out-right prevent usage.

Why is this different from any other example?
Anyone can don a White Robe of the Archmage and gain all of its benefits. If, however, you are not of Good alignment you will gain negative levels, and if you don't cast spells you won't have much use for the bonus on caster level checks vs SR.
While the Berserker enhancement doesn't actively give you a penalty if you are unable to rage, it does not confer its benefits upon the wielder either.

 

[IcyCool]

Well unless it really was an at will item (mental activation, free action), it still takes a standard action to activate, so is rather balanced in the way a bow of true strike would be. I can't see many players choosing to forego full attack or spellcasting to possably heal 1d8, in the middle of combat? Unless it was nessary, and if it is, then your glad to have it. And ya, it kills down time, but do you play the game to have down time? You are playing high fantasy, once you get to thoes levels, right?

"Those levels" being any level that can afford 1,800 gp. That would be 3rd, 4th if you are using the "can't spend more than 40% of your wealth on a single item" variant. Unless the encounters are cascading one after the other, the party will be fully healed before every encounter. I think you underestimate just how powerful that is.

I just cant get my head around this idea. I must have just been lucky, but such an idea has never been expresed by any DM I have played with. Oh, and the final say lies with the player, because, again, you can take your books and go home.

I'm not saying the DM should run around banning things willy nilly and then saying, "I AM GOD!" If that is going on the players should vote with their feet and move on. But the DM does run the game. And as such, the buck stops with him/her. If a player doesn't like that his/her DM didn't approve an item, then the player can walk, but that doesn't change the fact that the DM didn't approve the item, and the item isn't in the game.

Out of curiousity, if your DM doesn't run your game and decide what happens, what exactly does he/she do?

 

[RuminDange]

Anyone can don a White Robe of the Archmage and gain all of its benefits. If, however, you are not of Good alignment you will gain negative levels, and if you don't cast spells you won't have much use for the bonus on caster level checks vs SR.
While the Berserker enhancement doesn't actively give you a penalty if you are unable to rage, it does not confer its benefits upon the wielder either.

Actually if you check the text on the robe not just anyone can don it and gain the benefits.

Robe of the Archmagi: This normal-appearing garment can be white (01–45 on d%, good alignment), gray (46–75, neither good nor evil alignment), or black (76–100, evil alignment). Its wearer, if an arcane spellcaster, gains the following powers.
• +5 armor bonus to AC.
• Spell resistance 18.
• +4 resistance bonus on all saving throws.
• +2 enhancement bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance.
If a white robe is donned by an evil character, she immediately gains three negative levels. The reverse is true with respect to a black robe donned by a good character. An evil or good character who puts on a gray robe, or a neutral character who dons either a white or black robe, gains two negative levels. While these negative levels never result in lost levels, they remain as long as the garment is worn and cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells).

Emphasis mine of course

So without arcane spell casting ability you gain nothing from the robe. With the incorrect alignment for the robe you gain negative levels. Only Bards, Sorcerers and Wizards can use this item and gain anything from it.

RD

 

[RuminDange]

"Those levels" being any level that can afford 1,800 gp. That would be 3rd, 4th if you are using the "can't spend more than 40% of your wealth on a single item" variant. Unless the encounters are cascading one after the other, the party will be fully healed before every encounter. I think you underestimate just how powerful that is.

An item like the Cure light wounds at will shouldn't even show up before 12th level in my opinion if it was to be allowed at all. Cost should prohibit it at lower levels.

"
I'm not saying the DM should run around banning things willy nilly and then saying, "I AM GOD!" If that is going on the players should vote with their feet and move on. But the DM does run the game. And as such, the buck stops with him/her. If a player doesn't like that his/her DM didn't approve an item, then the player can walk, but that doesn't change the fact that the DM didn't approve the item, and the item isn't in the game.

Agreed, as a DM you have to make the game fun for everyone without going into some power trip but ultimately the game is controlled by the DM who puts in the most time on this effort for everyone to have a good time and therefore their say should carry some weight.

RD

 

[Scion]

Only Bards, Sorcerers and Wizards can use this item and gain anything from it.

I'd let someone with use magic device fool it for a time but that is just me..

 

[RuminDange]

I'd let someone with use magic device fool it for a time but that is just me..

I would too. It would require up to two skill checks however, one for Arcane Spell Casting Ability and one for Alignment if they didn't match the robe color. I have no problem with that since by the skill use magic device it is something that can be done, but without such a skill it is quite limiting.

Or course I'm only looking at classes in Core books or SRD for which classes would be allowed as others in the Complete books and some prestige classes might allow other non-arcane spell casters the ability to use the robe.

RD

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

But unlike most of the other variants listed in the Core books, this one then has several pages of "un-boxed" explanatory text and tables. Moreover, it's the only "variant" that's widely used in WotC and other publishers products. Each "Complete X" book, for example, prices its magic items in this way. Dungeon magazine, etc.

That's not true. SOME magic items in the Complete books are priced using this formula, but not all of them. They are good guidelines to start with.

Monte Cook wrote them, and I know on his message boards, he's said more than once that he didn't even really want to include them in the DMG, because he knew there was no way to use a formula to price magic items. Each magic item had to be created individually and priced purely based on what looked right and then playtested to make sure it wasn't too powerful. Nearly everytime someone asks him a question about the item creation rules he refers people to the section at the end that says that the last step is to check the price against existing magic items and adjust the price accordingly and if the item sounds too powerful, not to allow it at all. He pretty much says this is THE most important step and that more often than not, the price that the formula comes out with will not be appropriate.

He's also the first to admit that the chart itself is an optional rule.

As for the original question. You are right, the rules for what makes an item epic and pretty much only in the Epic Handbook. They are fairly good restrictions though, as skill items that are too high imbalance low level games, same thing with too high bonuses in any other category or an item that gives too many bonuses for any one slot.

This is why, in my game, I generally tell people no immediately if they ask to make a new magic item. They are too hard to balance, and things that SEEM balanced can turn out really powerful in situations you didn't consider.

 

[Nail]

Me too. I also hate Ring of Evasion with an even stronger passion. Feats and skill start making me angry, but giving out class abilities is way across the line.

Absolutely.

Unfortunately, RAW disagrees. Sigh.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Absolutely.

Unfortunately, RAW disagrees. Sigh.

Yes. It is quite unfortunate. That's why I have a bunch of house rules