Core classes. How are they balanced?

[Starbuck_II]

Greetings,

First I admit to not having time to have read all of the posts, but I will say this until I get more time to read in detail the entire thread.

I have never seen a 3.5 Druid or Cleric become a game dominating character, their abilities and powers are impressive, but in a fantasy world they are bound by their Ethos, which can often be a stumbling block even for evil clerics. Wizards are bound by no supernatural morality, educated in the finest way, and almost universally brilliant. Those things tend to tip the scales for wizards. Wizards routinely become the top dog in 3.5 games. A well prepared wizard is a Mighty thing.

In my experience the personality invested into a given character make him powerful, not his stats. Choices, reactions, in game really do mean more than what is on your character sheet.

A well prepared Druid is stronger.
What ethos stops a Druid?
Punish those that threaten nature. Be the strongest you can be (Survival of the fittest).
Yeah, that will rein in the Druid (not likely).

Clerics you at least have a Diety to step in as a DM, but nothing riens in a Druid but the Druid himself.

 

[Jhaelen]

Clerics you at least have a Diety to step in as a DM, but nothing riens in a Druid but the Druid himself.

Umm, well, a druid can lose all of his class abilities for 'crimes against nature' just like a cleric for acting against her faith.

E.g. the druid player in my campaign after helping to kill the last surviving members of an elven village, continued to destroy the treant guardians, allied pixies and finally cut down the tree of a fleeing dryad sorceress.
Incredibly enough he was actually surprised when I told him that his prayers for spells went unheard the next morning.

 

[Runestar]

Well, at lower lvs, an animal companion (typically a riding dog trained for war) is not necessarily inferior to a fighter. And you get a free druid as part of the package as well. You know something is wrong when a wolf is listed as cr1, while a druid with a wolf companion is cr1 as well.

Later on, you have natural spell, which makes your druid the equivalent of a spellcasting fighter at all times. Throw in bite of the werebear and he becomes a combat monster. If need be, summon in some allies.

Part of the reason why the shapeshift variant balances out the druid is because the stat bonuses it grants are enhancement bonuses, which do not stack with the "bite of the XXX" line of spells.

Nor do I think we should expect roleplaying requirements to balance out what would normally be a very strong class, simply because it is not affirmed. It may very well be possible to both roleplay well and play your druid very effectively. Hard cold stats should really be all that matter in discussions like this, IMO.

 

[Sylrae]

Nor do I think we should expect roleplaying requirements to balance out what would normally be a very strong class, simply because it is not affirmed. It may very well be possible to both roleplay well and play your druid very effectively. Hard cold stats should really be all that matter in discussions like this, IMO.

You sir, have a complete grasp of what I have been trying to say for the past X pages. Congratulations on a job well done.

I commend your intellect.

 

[Failed Saving Throw]

If you open your game to everything, like I foolishly did with my current Savage Tide campaign, the druid quickly emerges as the most unbalanced of all the classes by far. In fact, I think the mix of abilities that druids get when you combine splatbooks is so ridiculous that my next campaign is going to be Core.

 

[Jack Simth]

If you open your game to everything, like I foolishly did with my current Savage Tide campaign, the druid quickly emerges as the most unbalanced of all the classes by far. In fact, I think the mix of abilities that druids get when you combine splatbooks is so ridiculous that my next campaign is going to be Core.

There's some pretty mean stuff out there for most classes. Druids get a lot of over-strong stuff in non-core, this is true. But then, so do other classes. One of the big things that makes a character broken is the level of player skill in optimization and design. Or rather, what makes a character broken is a level of optimization out of line with the other players. Of course, there's also a lot of non-broken stuff out there - like most of the reserve feats - too; you'll want to take most things on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Runestar]

In fact, I think the mix of abilities that druids get when you combine splatbooks is so ridiculous that my next campaign is going to be Core.

Please. Druid20 alone is the poster-boy for why the assumption that core = balanced is one of the biggest fallacies in 3e!

Core builds are not always balanced, nor are non-core builds drawing upon material from multiple different sources necessarily broken. At least, it gives melee classes the options they need. I think it would be better to just personally vet through your players' builds first to nip any overpowering combinations in the bud before they can take root in your games.

 

[comrade raoul]

A lot of the balance problems in 3e and 3.5e come from a small number of messy spells in the core books, and all sorts of weird stuff from the splatbooks. You can rein this in, and make the game more fun for non-optimizers, by sticking to a smaller number of books and paying close attention to what's in them. Here are some more concrete suggestions, FWIW:

• Limit players to material from the Player's Handbook and, if you like, the Player's Handbook II. (You'll get some more variety that way, and it's a really nice option for high-level fighters.) Use the alternate wildshaping rules from the PHII.
• Ban the following spells: divine favor, divine power, righteous might, polymorph. Clerics and wizards will remain effective, but they won't be able to totally overshadow the fighter. Substitute domain spells as appropriate: I suggest substituting mass bull's strength for righteous might in the Strength domain, and maybe fire shield or stoneskin for divine power in the War domain.
• If players really want to use material from other splatbooks, allow it on a case-by-case basis. Make sure the player has a really good justification for the extra material.
• If you want to make a broader range of prestige classes available than just those in the DMG, pick out around ten or fifteen classes ahead of time that you think would be especially important for your campaign. Let players know ahead of time that these are the only options.

 

[ardentmoth]

You're right. Maybe we should just let the thread die, since it's been brought up 1096410324601275603756213 times already and still isn't considered feeble or vain....?

 

[Derro]

E.g. the druid player in my campaign after helping to kill the last surviving members of an elven village, continued to destroy the treant guardians, allied pixies and finally cut down the tree of a fleeing dryad sorceress.
Incredibly enough he was actually surprised when I told him that his prayers for spells went unheard the next morning.

Ha!

That totally sounds like a guy I used to game with. Followed by [whine]But I didn't do anything...[/whine]

Loser...

Please. Druid20 alone is the poster-boy for why the assumption that core = balanced is one of the biggest fallacies in 3e!

Really?

Druid20 is no more powerful than Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer20 with Core rules. They get no wild spell, I don't think there was any wild armor or darkwood plate BS. Sure they can transform into an elemental but a Wizard can summon like 10 of equal power.

They outstrip the martials on diversity but a Fighter 20 is still gonna beat the snot out of a wild-shaped druid unless the fighter has a very skewed build. Keep in mind we're talking PHB and DMG only here, no splats, no UA.

Druids and clerics are really good at buffing, obviously, but I think it is erroneous to assume they are always fully buffed and operating at peak efficiency. A martial character on the other hand really only needs to worry about where his HP are at since he's either 100% effective or on the ground, bleeding out.

Your experiences probably vary from this, simply by the nature of your original statement, but I rarely find that buffed up spell-casters are as big a threat as some say. Dispel magic is easy to cast, forcing concentration checks is easy to do. Trips, grapples, blindness, silence. Not effective all the time (suck it, divine favor) but definitely where the advantages lay when beating up spell-casters.

Anyway, just my opinion, everybody plays a different game.