Core classes. How are they balanced?

[Derro]

You're right. Maybe we should just let the thread die, since it's been brought up 1096410324601275603756213 times already and still isn't considered feeble or vain....?

Isn't this just one more post that won't let the thread die? Am I missing something?

 

[Jack Simth]

Really?

Druid20 is no more powerful than Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer20 with Core rules. They get no wild spell

Natural Spell, PHB page 98, is I suspect what you mean.

, I don't think there was any wild armor

Wild Armor Property, DMG page 219

or darkwood plate BS.

Dragonhide, Special Materials, DMG page 283.

Sure they can transform into an elemental but a Wizard can summon like 10 of equal power.

So can the Druid - Elemetal Swarm, PHB 226.

They outstrip the martials on diversity but a Fighter 20 is still gonna beat the snot out of a wild-shaped druid unless the fighter has a very skewed build. Keep in mind we're talking PHB and DMG only here, no splats, no UA.

Dwarven Druid-20 sets up for the encounter, 2 hours in advance (e.g., daily preparations).
Puts on his +5 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate (took a feat for the proficiency; also takes Power Attack, Quicken Spell, and Natural Spell as feats - that's four of the seven the Druid-20 has - there's still room for Spell Focus(conjuration), Augment Summoning, and one other for flavor or use - Craft Wondrous Item, maybe).
Casts Barkskin (10 minutes/level, will last a little over three hours; PHB). Recasts as needed later on (it's only a 2nd level spell - Druid can have five copies if he wants, and at a little over 3 hours each, that's basically good for all day).
Casts Longstrider (+10 Move - and at an hour/level, lasts all day).
Casts Air Walk (10 minutes/level, will last a little over three hours; 4th level spell, can recast when it wears down, and be good basically all day)
Wildshapes into a Dire Tiger (MM).
Casts Greater Magic Fang (1 hour/level) on each natural weapon (Claw, Claw, Bite, Rake, Rake). Five castings, but it's only a 3rd level spell, and it lasts all day.

This guy has one single magic item on his list. There could be lots more, no problem. Even with the Wildshape errata, nothing stops him from taking things off before Wildshaping and putting things back on after Wildshaping.

Assuming the elete array (15/14/13/12/10/8), with stat priority: Wis, Con, Str, Int, Dex, Cha (all level boosts into Wisdom), before Wildshape, he's got: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 16, Int-10, Wis-20, Cha-6.

After his suite of buff spells, he's a pumped up Dire Tiger:

HP: 20d8+60 (average of 150; 153.5 with max first HD).
AC: 35 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +11 natural, +13 Armor)
BAB: +15
Attack: Claw +27 Melee (2d4+13)
Full Attack: Claw +27 Melee (2d4+13), Claw +27 Melee (2d4+13), Bite: +22 Melee (1d8+9)
Pounce Attack: Claw +29 Melee (2d4+13), Claw +29 Melee (2d4+13), Bite: +24 Melee (1d8+9), Rake +24 (2d4+9), Rake +24 (2d4+9).
Move: 50 ft.

Oh yeah - and with Quicken spell, he can put out a few Cure Critical Wounds in the middle of combat without slowing down, and keep a Bull's Strength or Bear's Endurance spells handy for the first round (increasing both to-hit and damage for each attack, or Hit Points).

Additionally, he's got an Animal Companion to act as a flanking buddy (flanking is in the description of some of the animals on the list, so this isn't a problem for the Druid to arrange).

Further, the Druid can also cast a few Save-or-lose spells.

Moreover, all of his buff spells included in the stat-block above can be maintained basically all day (nothing less than 10 minutes/level, and they're all low-level enough that he can prepare enough copies to go 15 or 16 hours), and as he's preparing multiple copies of each anyway, he can re-cast them if dispelled.

How strong of a fighter can you build, using just the PHB, DMG, and 3.5 MM, on the elite array? Druids get even worse on a point-buy, because there's really just two statistics they need - Wisdom and Constitution. And they can get away with a mediocre score in either.

Then again, the Druid could just cast Shapechange and be, oh, a buffed-up Planetar all day. Or maybe a Choker (casting two spells per round). Or a Nymph (best used if the Druid did not dump charisma, as done in my example above). Or whatever.

Druids and clerics are really good at buffing, obviously, but I think it is erroneous to assume they are always fully buffed and operating at peak efficiency.

At 20th, they can be (barring a DM who routinely uses Dispel Magic - but then, the build above is using multiple copies of all buff spells anyway, and a Druid can make use of a Bead of Karma (also in the DMG) to make things tougher to dispel). Plus, you know, a Fighter-20 can't cast Greater Dispel Magic or Disjunction very easily.

A martial character on the other hand really only needs to worry about where his HP are at since he's either 100% effective or on the ground, bleeding out.

... that is, of course, assuming he hasn't been blinded by a Sunbeam, turned into a cute little bunny rabbit by Baelful Polymorph, Entangled, held up as a target by a Summoned Elder Air Elemental, or any of the other nasty things a Druid can do.

Your experiences probably vary from this, simply by the nature of your original statement, but I rarely find that buffed up spell-casters are as big a threat as some say. Dispel magic is easy to cast

Yes, but not by a Fighter - and a prepared Druid will be able to rebuild his buffs after the fight's over. Meanwhile, the opposing spellcaster that cast the Greater Dispel Magic (or Disjunction) spent an action focusing on just the Druid - and D&D is a game designed for a party of four. That's one round of lose for the opposing caster. And while it weakens the Druid it's spent on, it doesn't get rid of the Druid's actions - so the Druid can simply return fire with something else. Maybe a readied action to disrupt spellcasting with a Flame Strike, to keep the opposing spellcaster shut down after he so generously wasted his first turn.

, forcing concentration checks is easy to do. Trips, grapples, blindness, silence. Not effective all the time (suck it, divine favor) but definitely where the advantages lay when beating up spell-casters.

A proper Druid-zilla does around 90% of his casting out of battle, where concentration checks, Silence Effects, Trips, Grapples, Silence, and (normally) Blindness don't apply.

Anyway, just my opinion, everybody plays a different game.

Now, granted, the Druid-zilla build above doesn't really start taking off until higher level, but even reasonably early on, he's no pushover.

 

[Derro]

Natural Spell, PHB page 98, is I suspect what you mean.

Wild Armor Property, DMG page 219

Dragonhide, Special Materials, DMG page 283.

Gaaah.

I will admit my ignorance here. I forgot most of that stuff was in 3.5. Since those things appeared in Masters of the Wild I mis-remembered them as splat stuff.

For the most part you are correct because of my above oversight.

That's a pretty mighty druid.

There's a few things in there that I can't get behind (quickening cure critical? take the round to cast heal, I say, and shapechanging into a planetar is a party trick at 20th level ) but truly it's that Natural Spell that does me in.

A fighter of equivalent level has got a better AC, HP, and attack/damage potential even when the druid is buffed. It would be a fight weighted toward the fighter if it was just druid and animal companion against lone fighter. With a dancing weapon and a greatsword of speed the animal companion is minced in 2 rounds while the dancer engages the druid.

But, again I admit my bad, it's all moot due to Natural spell. That is the major kicker, the druid can assume combat form and still bust out heals, debuffs, and continued buffs as needed.

I won't bother with a fighter build. There's plenty a fighter can do to bring the pain but short of rings of spell turning and EPIC armors of spell resistance there's little a fighter can do against targeted save-or-suck spells.

So I'll concede that point, gladly.

Regarding actions against buffed-out druid (i.e. dispels, greater dispels, combat actions, etc.) I'll just clarify that I wasn't specifically referring to fighter vs. druid but rather anybody vs. druid. The original comment I was replying to stated that the Druid 20 controlled all. That's crap. Spell-caster 20 of any class can take on just about anything else within a reasonable challenge range. The invisible, flying, summoning wizard with the CL 10 wand of whatever is a pretty good contender against most anything.

I get it that the Cleric and Druid have a lot of advantages but the biggest downside to their schtick is that they need the time to buff. Get the jump on them and most of the time they are screwed. With arcanists not so much. They've generally got a bag of tricks that allows for a quick escape and counter-strike. Which is sort of the problem with our contrived scenarios. It tends to assume the optimum condition for whatever argument is being made. Not to say that those conditions never exist but they are hardly the standard in most cases.

 

[Jack Simth]

Gaaah.

I will admit my ignorance here. I forgot most of that stuff was in 3.5. Since those things appeared in Masters of the Wild I mis-remembered them as splat stuff.

I've got a copy of the 3.0 DMG and PHB - which doesn't have Natural Spell in the PHB, and neither the Dragonhide material nor the Wild property in the DMG. The confusion is understandable.

For the most part you are correct because of my above oversight.

That's a pretty mighty druid.

There's a few things in there that I can't get behind (quickening cure critical? take the round to cast heal, I say,

Heal nets you a full 150 HP... but it also lets your opponent go unopposed that round. A Quickened Cure Critical means you get some healing (4d8+20, average of 38), but have no need to stop fighting (as it's a Swift action, you can continue with a Full Attack).

and shapechanging into a planetar is a party trick at 20th level ) but truly it's that Natural Spell that does me in.

Yeah. Hence the Druid-20 being the poster child of Core 3.5 being unbalanced, as Runestar mentioned.

A fighter of equivalent level has got a better AC, HP, and attack/damage potential even when the druid is buffed. It would be a fight weighted toward the fighter if it was just druid and animal companion against lone fighter. With a dancing weapon and a greatsword of speed the animal companion is minced in 2 rounds while the dancer engages the druid.

A couple of things with doing that....
1) It takes a standard action to loose a Dancing Weapon to fight. Which means while you could potentially do that, you've got a round where your opponent isn't opposed if you do (unless your DM rules that a Dancing weapon gets a full attack on the round you set it loose).
2) Dancing weapons only continue to dance for four rounds - so (unlike with an Animated Shield) you can't just activate it when you get up in the morning and forget about it.
3) The Druid above is using a single magic item (valued at 67,300 gp - and a Dancing weapon is a +4 equivalent property; a +2 Dancing weapon costs 72,000, plus the base weapon. As an exercise, figure out what the Druid can do to his combat ability with the rest of his 760,000 gp of character wealth he's supposed to have at that level. Do remember: Bonuses such as those from a Tome or Manual continue between forms - so if he picks up a +5 Manual of Quickness of Action (+3 AC, as the Dire Tiger has an odd Dex score), a +5 Manual of Gainful Exercise (+3 Attack on each hit, +3 damage on the claws, +1 damage on the other attacks), as the Dire Tiger has an odd Strength score), a +4 Manual of Bodily Health (+40 hit points), and a +5 Tome of Understanding (simply because most Druids tend to maximize Wisdom), those boosts stay when he wildshapes - combine that with a Quickened Animal Attribute spell at the beginning of the battle, and, well... I'm sure you get the idea.
4) The Druid above is using the elite array - which is a 25 point-buy equivalent, spread out in a way that really isn't optimal at all. In an actual point-buy, the Druid gets even worse - as there are really only two stats the Druid needs to buy after about 6th or 7th level (Wis and Con), as the Wild Shape provides the rest.

Yes, the Druid I statted out is mighty... and he's also got non-optimal stats, and doesn't have all the bonuses he can legitimately have at that level from items, even sticking to pure core.

But, again I admit my bad, it's all moot due to Natural spell. That is the major kicker, the druid can assume combat form and still bust out heals, debuffs, and continued buffs as needed.

Yeah. Core Druid is overpowered compared to most Core classes for around 75% of character levels (Wizard can potentially overtake the Druid after around 15th, give or take, in terms of character power).

I won't bother with a fighter build. There's plenty a fighter can do to bring the pain but short of rings of spell turning and EPIC armors of spell resistance there's little a fighter can do against targeted save-or-suck spells.

So I'll concede that point, gladly.

Okay.

Regarding actions against buffed-out druid (i.e. dispels, greater dispels, combat actions, etc.) I'll just clarify that I wasn't specifically referring to fighter vs. druid but rather anybody vs. druid. The original comment I was replying to stated that the Druid 20 controlled all. That's crap. Spell-caster 20 of any class can take on just about anything else within a reasonable challenge range. The invisible, flying, summoning wizard with the CL 10 wand of whatever is a pretty good contender against most anything.

The specific quote you replied to was "Please. Druid20 alone is the poster-boy for why the assumption that core = balanced is one of the biggest fallacies in 3e!" - if everything is balanced, a Wizard, a Druid, a Fighter, a Rogue, a Bard, and a Monk should have about the same amount of character power, give or take a reasonably small amount. Saying the Druid is balanced because the Wizard, Cleric, and Sorcerer have a similar power level neglects the other seven PC character classes in the game (Barbarian, Bard, Rogue, Ranger, Fighter, Monk, Paladin) when you're looking at class balance.

Or, in other words, if the non-casters can't keep up with the Full Casters, in Core, actual class balance really isn't present.

I get it that the Cleric and Druid have a lot of advantages but the biggest downside to their schtick is that they need the time to buff. Get the jump on them and most of the time they are screwed. With arcanists not so much. They've generally got a bag of tricks that allows for a quick escape and counter-strike. Which is sort of the problem with our contrived scenarios. It tends to assume the optimum condition for whatever argument is being made. Not to say that those conditions never exist but they are hardly the standard in most cases.

Cape of the Monteback, Boots of Teleportation, or a Helm of Teleportation can provide a quick getaway for any class. The Druid I listed is using long-duration buffs, that don't need to be cast during a battle.

Between a Wizard and a Cleric, you can negate most of the need for a Rogue (Silence + Invisibility covers most scouting needs, Arcane Sight + an Unseen Servant dragging a bag of Rocks detects 99% of traps, wand of some direct-damage spell can be used to destroy 99% of traps once found; Knock takes care of locks). The only other thing you need a rogue in the party for is the spot/listen checks and social skills (and the occasional antimagic zone) - and the Druid gets Spot, Listen, and Diplomacy as class skills.

With a party of a Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, and Cleric, about the only things you're really missing (if you have some player creativity) is Sense Motive and a way to deal with large-scale antimagic zones - and even then, both Cleric and Druid are 75% fighter ... and the Druid's got the Animal Companion for a 60% Fighter.

 

[ardentmoth]

Isn't this just one more post that won't let the thread die? Am I missing something?

YAY! you got the irony. You win a trophy: A golden monkey atop a marble dais, which is etched with the words: "He wouldn't let it die, you couldn't help but watch."

 

[Runestar]

On a side note, what exactly were we debating about again? This thread seems to be going around in circles...

 

[Sylrae]

Clearly 3.5e has alot of things that aren't right.
4,0 is more balanced, but its so limited in scope that it makes me feel like I'm playing a board game.
Pathfinder looks like it will be an improvement over both, though I imagine it too will be far from perfect.

While I agree that there are these issues, I don't see the point in discussing the intricacies of class imbalance without intending to redesign the class/fix it.ENWorld is filled with developers, I dev stuff myself, even though it isnt published, and I imagine many others on this site also dev stuff without publishing.

So. People say caster v non-caster the caster is better. while I agree with you at 20, it's the inverse at 1 (for all but the cleric and druid - hence the point of this thread initially). The fighters are linear based, the casters are quadratic. If you want total balance at every level, then you need to use the same system for both. I would argue that the fighter and wizard are balanced in one sense, because they switch which is better in the middle. the wizard is terrible at low levels but kicks ass at high levels. the fighter is good at low levels and mediocre at high levels.

Where we have all these inconsistencies, the only real solution is to remake the classes to be better. I'm doing it a bit, and Kerrick is doing it too. If we want balanced classe we aren't going to have them magically appear without them being made.
Not all of us like 4e, even though it is more balanced. But at the same time, alot of people don't like the imbalance of 3.xe. Therefore the only solution is to take the linux approach and if you don't like how the pros did it, do a better job yourself.

 

[spoonguy]

You sir, have a complete grasp of what I have been trying to say for the past X pages. Congratulations on a job well done.

I commend your intellect.

I tend to think you’re both being a little naive

The assumption that the classes should balance in a way they are equally effective in all realms or are part of some intricate balance paradigm is the foundation of a very bad and ultimately different game. There as so many balance issues in D&D that the DM is the only person who can try and balance things, just don't assume everything is supposed to be balanced by cold hard stats and you're fine.

The role-play element is key; this is just a framework that needs managing. This is an argument that plagues MMORPGS. Many classes are pretty useless without a team to contribute to so doing solo quests is easy for some and impossible for others. However teams with these support classes are again useless. If solo is where you are going pick your class carefully or head on over to 4th ed.

Although the freeform idea is one I've played through before it's good that all the classes cant stand up to the others to me it would make the game very very boring.

 

[Sylrae]

you totally missed the point. the purpose is not to have the classes be equally good at everything, the point is to NOT have a class that's good at considerably MORE than another class. they shouldnt be the same things theyre good at, but one class shouldnt be good at considerably more.

the fact that a rogue is good at skillful things, a fighter is good at melee combat, and a wizard is good at magic are all GOOD things. and its good that they aren't the same. the issue is how the cleric is a fighter AND a wizard at the same time, without losing much usefulness in either category for the added versatility..

 

[nathreet]

I got through about 3-4 posts on this thread before I couldn't go any farther.

"I know more than WotC on balance b/c I played a couple games and post on internez forums! They may make articles with guides on strainge/obscure spells and other things but no way they included them in their hundreds of hours of playtesting!"

The... arcane... spells... are... stronger. That is all.

EDIT: For those who don't understand an exaggeration inside quotation marks, here's the simpler and longer version. WotC is intimately familiar with all the tricky spells, as evidenced by their strategy articles shortly after the release of 3e/3.5e. The content of these is the farthest thing possible from direct damage and healing. So it stands to reason that "unusual" spells were covered during their extensive playtesting. Now, after hundreds of thousands of hours of real world play (split among thousands of players) I can see how someone might discover an obscure unintended exploit and share it with others. But for someone to put their random opinion above all the playtesting is just silly. Or you can just compare divine and arcane spells at every level and see for yourself.