core problem: duelist

[Darklone]

Rystil:
IUS could be a kick. No need to use a weapon in your other hand even if you would assume that your free hand is considered to be a weapon.

Even if IUS is allowed to be used with two-weapon fighting and precise strike, unarmed strikes are not piercing and so do not benefit precise strike. I think there's a feat somewhere to make unarmed strikes piercing, but that adds another feat to an already very feat intensive build.

PHB2.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Rystil:
IUS could be a kick. No need to use a weapon in your other hand even if you would assume that your free hand is considered to be a weapon.


PHB2.

Oh, I know it could be a kick from a flavour perspective--however, the rules on TWF spell out that by definition, you don't get TWF attacks unless you are counting as attacking with your weapon of choice in the off-hand. Thus, by definition, the thing the Duelist cannot do is equivalent to TWF, even with an unarmed strike that technically doesn't use an arm. That said, the Duelist sucks and mixing in unarmed attacks for a swashbuckler is cool, so I'd be inclined to turn a blind eye and allow this if someone tried it in my game.

 

[pawsplay]

If the bulk of your damage output is 7 damage at level 16, you are worthless to your team.

See below.

The Weapon of Speed could be adding equivalent attacks for the other guy.

Except without an additional +2d6 on top of whatever he is getting, so they really aren't equivalent, are they?

I did forget the hydra thing, but the hydra would still have to have Spring Attack or else suffer a full attack when it first closes.

I'm sure it will have plenty of time to express remorse over that fact as it begins to regenerate damage.

Yep, an idiot who memorised Quickened Slow--I cannot think of a worse use of a level 7 spell slot and a Swift action. As for slowing golems, those are pathetic at level 16--the GM would have had to specifically created advanced versions of those golems (possibly just to prove the point that you can be Slowed?), and don't forget--golems are immune to Precise Strike.

Golems are rarely encountered alone, except for in abandoned tombs.

Potions of Restoration? Huh?

Potions of Lesser Restoration.

If you ambushed an enemy at that distance at level 16, something is probably very weird.

.... What, exactly, would be weird about that situation? No one ambushes past level 15 or something?

It is also all of one attack on round 1 with 7 extra damage that won't ramify into better damage any time else--if you really wanted to do extra damage on the surprise attack, you'd be a Rogue.

Damage is still damage.

When you said X/Adamantine, I assume you meant X was large. For an adamantine armour wearer or a Warforged, the X is small enough that the TWF Fighter will still be doing more damage.

Unless the amount drops you below that 14 hit point or whatever threshold.

Versus Stoneskin, you lose nothing if you delay to let your friendly caster Greater Dispel it.

I fail to see how standing around with your thumb up your bum is "losing nothing." And a duelist, at least, could employ elaborate parry.

And if your caster is known for not doing this, you should have some adamantine weapons on hand anyway: Particularly, if the +2d6 is really 'the majority of your damage', the Precise Striker isn't going to cut through the DR 10/adamantine much anyway, and the TWFer will discharge Stoneskin faster.

I meant majority as in "the greater part," not in the sense of 51%. +2d6 is likely to be greater than your Str bonus to damage, and certainly is greater than any non-epic enhancement bonus.

I can continue to throw more mitgating circumstances at you all day, many of them quite common. For instance, what if someone causes you to have a penalty to attack? That can radically change the balance between TWF and higher damage attacks. Haste and weapons of speed favor the character with stronger individual attacks. DRs other than adamatine, for instance, the uniquitious DR 10/good. If you want to use an oil or scroll to enhance a weapon, a TWF needs twice as many, plus two rounds to apply them. If a TWF is drained or damaged below Dex 15, he loses the benefit of his TWF feet. The secondary weapon is likely a light weapon, which can be disarmed; if not, the TWF fighter suffers higher penalties. The TWF does not gain the benefits of Feats to both weapons such as Weapon Focus and the like, unless he wields two light weapons. A ring of minor spell storing with true strike can be used to grant the duelist an all but guaranteed hit at +2d6 higher; a TWF gains the bonus only to the first attack. A duelist gains his precise strike damage even on a charge. Or on an attack of opportunity.

That was what I meant by "etc."

I don't know about the games of every other person on the planet. I do know that in my games, PCs make at least as many standard attacks as full attacks.

 

[Rystil Arden]

See below.

Okay

Except without an additional +2d6 on top of whatever he is getting, so they really aren't equivalent, are they?

Actually, that's true--we've been giving the Duelist her Precise Strike and giving the TWFer nothing for those 10 levels except TWF. The straight Finesse TWF Fighter has 4 feats on top of the Duelist above and beyond the TWF chain--she can grab Greater Weapon Specialisation and Focus, Exotic Weapon Proficiency Elven Lightblade (or Oversized TWF--her choice), Melee Weapon Mastery, etc. So actually, she might be doing more damage anyway with each attack, and she'll be hitting more often than the Duelist despite TWF. That changes the threshold! In that case, the TWFer is better than the Duelist automatically, assuming she gets a full attack, and she is usually better on a standard action attack (TWFer has +3 to hit over the Duelist but Duelist has +3 damage, tohugh only if Precise Strike applies)

 

[Rystil Arden]

As an aside, pawsplay, why don't you build a level 16 Fighter6/Duelist10. I'll build a level 16 Finessing TWFer Fighter (which are known already for being among the weakest choices around, especially compared to a Two-Hander). We can then put them up against both average examples (taken from the MM and DMG--these are things you are most likely to actually encounter) and then against "pawsplay's examples tailored specifically to make the Duelist look better" (including custom monsters like advanced Slow golems, heavily templated hydras, etc).

 

[Shadowknight]

In my original 3e campaign one PC had a lot of fun with a monk/ftr/duellist

I run a campaign that has finally achieved epic levels. In this game, one of the Pc's is a duelist / bard. The combo rocks. The AC bonus she gets means when figting defensively she has the highest AC in the party, topping out somewhere in the mid 50's. I think the next closest pc has an ac of mid 40's...

Gives her a chance to sit back and inspire, be able to defend herself, and get some extra damage in from precise strike.

Most importantly, she has a lot of fun with it...

(I would also like to pint out, this is low epic lvls. The highest character in the party is 24, the bard in question is only lvl 22).

 

[pawsplay]

As an aside, pawsplay, why don't you build a level 16 Fighter6/Duelist10. I'll build a level 16 Finessing TWFer Fighter (which are known already for being among the weakest choices around, especially compared to a Two-Hander). We can then put them up against both average examples (taken from the MM and DMG--these are things you are most likely to actually encounter) and then against "pawsplay's examples tailored specifically to make the Duelist look better" (including custom monsters like advanced Slow golems, heavily templated hydras, etc).

I didn't mention any advanced golems. And the "custom monster" I had in mind was a fiendish hydra, or perhaps a fiendish half-dragon hydra.

For a good test, we'd need some EL 12 through 14 combats.

I suggest:
Fiendish twelve-headed hydra (CR 13)
Ogre barbarian 9 (CR 12)
Orc scout 14
Drow cleric 11 accompanied by a stone golem (CR 11)
Human fighter 7/blackguard 7

 

[Rystil Arden]

I didn't mention any advanced golems. And the "custom monster" I had in mind was a fiendish hydra, or perhaps a fiendish half-dragon hydra.

For a good test, we'd need some EL 12 through 14 combats.

I suggest:
Fiendish twelve-headed hydra (CR 13)
Ogre barbarian 9 (CR 12)
Orc scout 14
Drow cleric 11 accompanied by a stone golem (CR 11)
Human fighter 7/blackguard 7

That's for the group meant to be biased strongly in favoured of the Duelist, right? (since it contains pretty much all of the creatures you suggested as Duelist advantages, no undead, and the only critter in the list immune to Precise Strike is a weakling opponent that doesn't change the CR and is only around to try to proc a Slow). Also, aren't the CRs a bit low for a level 16 character?

We should also try to make our characters fairly similar except for the 10 Duelist levels versus Fighter levels and the Duelist prereqs (plus you'll have better items overall due to not having to purchase two weapons). That way, we don't have edge effects where one of us picks some crazy feat or magic item that the other could have taken but didn't notice that changes everything, you know? In other words, if one of us pulls out some sort of optimising combo that the other could have taken, the other can revise based on that. I'd build the two both myself to try to insure this, but I don't know if you would trust the analysis unless you got to build the Duelist yourself. For my part, I'll be building a vanilla Fighter16

 

[Rystil Arden]

Oh--Shall we do 25 PB?

 

[pawsplay]

That's for the group meant to be biased strongly in favoured of the Duelist, right? (since it contains pretty much all of the creatures you suggested as Duelist advantages, no undead, and the only critter in the list immune to Precise Strike is a weakling opponent that doesn't change the CR and is only around to try to proc a Slow). Also, aren't the CRs a bit low for a level 16 character?

A party of four 16th level characters can easily face a EL 16 group. Two halvings means an equivalent of -2 and -2 to EL, for an equivalent of EL 12. Anything over EL 16 would be considered instant death by the DMG guidelines.

The "weakling opponent" is a CR 11 creature and does increase the CR. That and the drow constitute an EL 13 encounter.

A problem I am having with your arguments is you seem to have significant weaknesses in your knowledge of the rules. This makes it difficult to be sure we are even talking the same language. "Advanced," for instance, doesn't mean "crazy whacked out custom job," it just means "create with a template, more HD, classes, or some other change from the base creature." Any NPC with class levels, for instance, is advanced.

I could easily have given you a bunch of high AC opponents. I thought this was a fair mix. However, since you've responded with derision probably intended to prejudice the decision, my enthusiasm is already decreasing. If this group of rather typical opponents (a magical beast, skilled NPCs, a wizard and pet) is slanted toward the duelist, that would suggest the duelist is pretty strong in the majority of situations.

I don't think you know what you're talking about, but perhaps you can change my mind with a "fair and balanced" slate of opponents.

Two likely opponents for the respective characters would be each other, so that should be taken into account, too.