Corrections to Monsters in the CC

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
From time to time, we find corrections that need to be made to monsters that are already in the CC, so I thought I'd start this thread as a place to post about them without interrupting conversions in progress.

In fact, Cleon and I often find minor errors during the upload process, which we can correct ourselves, but there are sometimes bigger ones that we'd prefer to open to general discussion (in principle) before making them.

Here's our first example: I was in the middle of uploading the narra when I noticed that it had the "know alignment" SLA, which of course doesn't exist in 3.X. As a stop-gap, I replaced that with detect good, but Cleon and I think we should probably replace it with a unique Su or Sp ability closer to the 1e know alignment spell. There are candidate abilities extant in the botswanna golgalarka, grythok, and koodjanuk, though none of these is touch range like the original spell. So, what do we all want to do for the narra? I'm leaning toward something like the botswanna golgalarka, but I don't think it should be automatic for any critter in range.
 

GrayLinnorm

Explorer
Why is the vampire-spectre's treasure "None", when it had treasure originally and vampires have double standard in the Monster Manual?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Why is the vampire-spectre's treasure "None", when it had treasure originally and vampires have double standard in the Monster Manual?
Odd, seems like we didn't discuss treasure. Probably that was a cut-paste error. So, what do you suggest?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Probably double standard, since that's what vampires get in 3e.
OK, I'll give a short while for anyone else to chime in. After the edit, you'll notice that the size will change from "Medium" to the 3e "Medium-sized" due to some bugs with the editing function...

Any thoughts on the narra's know alignment? I'm thinking of something like

Detect Alignment (Su): A narra can detect the alignment of any creature that comes within 60 feet as a standard action. This ability can be fooled by any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that masks a creature's alignment (or the Use Magic Device skill, although that requires a successful emulate alignment check prior to entering range of this ability and maintaining concentration the whole time within range).
 

Cleon

Adventurer
OK, I'll give a short while for anyone else to chime in. After the edit, you'll notice that the size will change from "Medium" to the 3e "Medium-sized" due to some bugs with the editing function...

Any thoughts on the narra's know alignment? I'm thinking of something like

Detect Alignment (Su): A narra can detect the alignment of any creature that comes within 60 feet as a standard action. This ability can be fooled by any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that masks a creature's alignment (or the Use Magic Device skill, although that requires a successful emulate alignment check prior to entering range of this ability and maintaining concentration the whole time within range).
You know, I'd be game to make it a touch effect like the original spell:

Touch Alignment (Su): As a standard action, a narra can sense the alignment of a single creature or object it is touching (chaos, evil, good or law) as well as the power of this aura (faint, moderate, strong, or overwhelming - see the detect evil spell for details). This ability requires a successful touch attack if the target is being uncooperative. The narra does not risk being stunned if it senses an overwhelming aura with an alignment opposite to its own. This ability can be fooled by any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that masks a creature's alignment.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I like that pretty well except for the name. If you don't like Detect Alignment due to having used it before, maybe we can go with something like "Determine Alignment" or "Sense Alignment." Also, are you allowing the UMD skill to work? I'm not sure it's an Su ability.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I like that pretty well except for the name. If you don't like Detect Alignment due to having used it before, maybe we can go with something like "Determine Alignment" or "Sense Alignment." Also, are you allowing the UMD skill to work? I'm not sure it's an Su ability.
Well UMD doesn't fool detect evil and the like does it, it's normally only for magic items with alignment restrictions.

As for (Su), I was just following your lead on "Detect Alignment", but I'd be fine making it (Sp).

Should we allow a saving throw and/or spell resistance?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I was actually asking if UMD is an Su ability! Anyway, I am fine with leaving UMD out of the ways to bypass the ability. As for a save, the original version doesn't allow a save, so I'd leave that off. Assuming we keep it Su, I also wouldn't allow SR. In that case, I'd be happy with using your "Touch Alignment" ability as is with just a change of name.

I've now corrected the treasure on the vampire-spectre.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I was actually asking if UMD is an Su ability! Anyway, I am fine with leaving UMD out of the ways to bypass the ability. As for a save, the original version doesn't allow a save, so I'd leave that off. Assuming we keep it Su, I also wouldn't allow SR. In that case, I'd be happy with using your "Touch Alignment" ability as is with just a change of name.
Well I suppose Use Magic Device would technically be an (Ex) ability, but it won't be of much use in an antimagic field!

I'm fine making it no-save since that's how it worked in AD&D. 3E detect [alignment] spells are no-SR, so I'd have this "Know Alignment" ability not allow spell resistance.

I've now corrected the treasure on the vampire-spectre.
Agreed.

The original Vampire-Spectre has Treasure Type F, the same as an AD&D Vampire, so we should have the treasure match in out 3E conversion too.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
In that case, how about this ability (it's the one you posted with a new name)?

Sense Alignment (Su): As a standard action, a narra can sense the alignment of a single creature or object it is touching (chaos, evil, good, or law) as well as the power of this aura (faint, moderate, strong, or overwhelming - see the detect evil spell for details). This ability requires a successful touch attack if the target is being uncooperative. The narra does not risk being stunned if it senses an overwhelming aura with an alignment opposite to its own. This ability can be fooled by any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that masks a creature's alignment.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
In that case, how about this ability (it's the one you posted with a new name)?

Sense Alignment (Su): As a standard action, a narra can sense the alignment of a single creature or object it is touching (chaos, evil, good, or law) as well as the power of this aura (faint, moderate, strong, or overwhelming - see the detect evil spell for details). This ability requires a successful touch attack if the target is being uncooperative. The narra does not risk being stunned if it senses an overwhelming aura with an alignment opposite to its own. This ability can be fooled by any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that masks a creature's alignment.
Well I fancy a name that references it requiring a touch. Maybe "Feel Alignment"?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
"Feel Alignment" works better than "Touch Alignment." OK, I'll make that correction tomorrow in case anyone else wants to comment.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
"Feel Alignment" works better than "Touch Alignment." OK, I'll make that correction tomorrow in case anyone else wants to comment.
That version's good enough for me, plug it in and call it a day:

Feel Alignment (Su): As a standard action, a narra can sense the alignment of a single creature or object it is touching (chaos, evil, good or law) as well as the power of this aura (faint, moderate, strong, or overwhelming - see the detect evil spell for details). This ability requires a successful touch attack if the target is being uncooperative. The narra does not risk being stunned if it senses an overwhelming aura with an alignment opposite to its own. This ability can be fooled by any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that masks a creature's alignment.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Incidentally, I remember noticing a few old monster entries that have errors in them - minor things like typos or a number that seems a point too high or low.

Are we going to have a discussion of those here, or will we just use this thread as a place to to point them out and correct the entry when we get time?

For example, the Demon Lord "Sch\'theraqpasstt" has a stray \ in front of every apostrophe in its entry. I'm presuming this is an artifact of its entry being edited with a Word Processor that used open/closing ‘quotes’ rather than straight 'quotes'. Come to think of it, I believe there are other monsters in the Creature Catalog that have that problem. Sch'theraqpasstt is just the most obvious, since it has the character-error in its name

Things like that should get fixed too, although going through the CC entry-by-entry to find such problems would be a pain.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I think we can use this thread to discuss problems or just point them out. There's probably not much need to discuss the \ in "Sch\'theraqpasstt" (that one has bothered me for a long time, too). Anyway, I would like to fix that sort of thing as well, but I also agree that we should do it in bits and pieces when we see problems or have time. As you say, going through the whole CC would be a pretty massive undertaking.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I think we can use this thread to discuss problems or just point them out. There's probably not much need to discuss the \ in "Sch\'theraqpasstt" (that one has bothered me for a long time, too). Anyway, I would like to fix that sort of thing as well, but I also agree that we should do it in bits and pieces when we see problems or have time. As you say, going through the whole CC would be a pretty massive undertaking.
Well it probably makes sense to take a consistent approach otherwise we might end up needlessly duplicating our efforts.

In any case I'll fix Sch\'theraqpasstt tonight. That one's been bothering me for ages.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Except to undead, the SLAs aren't offensive either. And it can require a touch attack. But I see your point... Fixed.
 

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