Cosmic Deity power levels in 5E...

[le Redoutable]

oh me who thought that the top in the search for power was in the Demi-Lich

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

Maybe, but I haven't seen anything in your proposal that makes Orcus tougher.

DMG: CR 26 should have 626-670 Hp & an average damage of 240 (which shouldn't factor legendary abilities).

It is not broken, but it might be a bit bent.

You have to do that anyway! There is no difference between your proposal and mine in terms of what you need to do with WotC epic monsters.

Let's take a step back. I feel like we are talking in circles here and your are just not understand what I am saying. Because from my perspective your option is a lot more work. So let's see if we can agree on some things:

1. The WotC Orcus is CR 26 (per WotC) and is relatively weak.
2. Your proposal is to revise monster CRs down roughly 25%?
3. This would make the WotC Orcus CR 17-18.
4. This would not make Orcus any stronger.
5. How do you make the WotC Orcus stronger without changing the stat block?

My proposal is that all CRs should use the DMG monster building guidelines BUT NOT factor secondary abilities which just inflate the number without upping the difficulty.

Revise the stat-blocks of important individuals so Orcus retains his CR of 26 but ensure the damage (don't count Legendary abilities) and hit point numbers are within the guidelines.

For generic monsters simply keep the same stat-block but drop the CR by 20%.

 

[le Redoutable]

Would a cap of 6 (for strength) be necessarily considered mediocre and a cap of 10 be 'good'...?

I use the BASE system :
in BASE 4 you use two stats of values ranging 1-4 that you multiply, so
1 1x1
2 1x2 or 2x1
3 1x3
4 2x2 or 1x4
in BASE 4 you don't use a 5 , so
5 = 6 like in 2x3
6 = 8
7 = 9
8 = 12
9 = 16

in BASE 5,
1 = 1
2 = 2
3 = 3
4 = 4
5 = 5
6 = 6
7 = 8
8 = 9
9 = 10
10 = 12
11 = 15
12 = 16
13 = 20
14 = 25

 

[le Redoutable]

( likely obsolete but let's try all the same )
I personally use ten power levels :
10 Cosmic Powers ( Marvel Faserip CL5000 and Beyond Range )
9 Titans ( Celestial Bodies )
8 Gods
7 Epic ( Olympic )
6 Superb
5 Excellent
4 Good
3 Mediocre
2 Poor
1 Weak

with stats caps of
10 42
9 36
8 30
7 25
6 18
5 14
4 9
3 6
2 3
1 1

actually, the 10 power levels are taken from their BASE

 

[dave2008]

I suspect it would take me less time to tweak WotC monster damage and hit points than it would for you to create a whole new stat-block.



...or simply keep them at the same established CR and simply adjust Damage & Hit Points appropriate to a monster of that CR - as determined by the DMG, which then completely balances the monsters.



Once you convert your PC group into their own CR all this encounter stuff is a doddle.





You retain the same CR for individuals and simply adjust damage and hit points - that would take a few minutes. Helluva lot less time than creating a new stat block WHICH will still have to use the flawed WotC method of incorporating secondary factors - which almost never have a bearing on actual difficulty.



Either the CR means something or it means nothing.

For instance why did you suggest there should be a CR 36 version of Orcus? It sounds completely arbitrary.



You keep the same stat-block for individuals and simply tweak damage and hit points (as per the DMG)...takes 5 minutes.

For generic (non-individual) WotC monsters you just reduce the CR by 20% and round down...takes 5 seconds.

Orcus stays CR 26, Balor becomes CR 15.

Ok, this provides much more insight into what you are doing, thank you! I will have some more specific thoughts later.

 

[dave2008]

DMG: CR 26 should have 626-670 Hp & an average damage of 240 (which shouldn't factor legendary abilities).

That is not how the DMG guidelines work though. So you are really rewriting the DMG monster building guidelines. Which I did with my initial effort as well (5e Epic Monster Updates), but I now believe that was a flawed approach. Now my approach was a bit different than yours, but a similar concept.

My proposal is that all CRs should use the DMG monster building guidelines BUT NOT factor secondary abilities which just inflate the number without upping the difficulty.

From what you are saying, we shouldn't care about anything except HP and DPR? I mean there are a lot of things that affect CR/difficulty beyond just HP and DPR.

Revise the stat-blocks of important individuals so Orcus retains his CR of 26 but ensure the damage (don't count Legendary abilities) and hit point numbers are within the guidelines.

So you are revising the statblock. You could revise the stat block (add damage and hit points and then assign a new CR without changing the DMG guidelines. That seems more universal to me. To be clear the monsters will align with your guidelines, not the DMG guidelines.

I think you have told me before, but why don't you want to include legendary actions in the DPR?

I guess my approach just seems easier if you are going to revise the statblocks of import monsters and change the DMG guidelines, why not just revise the statblock and use the DMG guidelines?

For generic monsters simply keep the same stat-block but drop the CR by 20%.

Got it.

Thank you for the reply, I understand what your plan is much better now. I still don't agree with it, but I think it work fine. I will just have to change the CR of all of your monsters

 

[Upper_Krust]

hello again buddy!

That is not how the DMG guidelines work though.

Which part, Legendary Abilities?

My reasoning is this. If I create a CR 26 version of Orcus without Legendary Abilities he will do x amount of damage. If I were to create a CR 26 version of Orcus WITH Legendary Abilities he would deal x amount of damage MINUS the Legendary Abilities. Therefore adding Legendary Abilities weakens core monsters.

Now I should also add I have a simple guide to assigning Legendary Abilities so there is less of the randomness I have seen in the official rules.

So you are really rewriting the DMG monster building guidelines. Which I did with my initial effort as well (5e Epic Monster Updates), but I now believe that was a flawed approach. Now my approach was a bit different than yours, but a similar concept.

I'm tweaking them for good reason while solidifying the game mechanics behind Legendary Actions.

From what you are saying, we shouldn't care about anything except HP and DPR? I mean there are a lot of things that affect CR/difficulty beyond just HP and DPR.

No I'm not saying that. Simply those are the two primary factors lacking in most official epic monsters.

So you are revising the statblock.

I'm suggesting DMs should check hit points and damage match the DMG Monster design guidelines and don't factor Legendary Actions.

You could revise the stat block (add damage and hit points and then assign a new CR without changing the DMG guidelines. That seems more universal to me. To be clear the monsters will align with your guidelines, not the DMG guidelines.

I think you have told me before, but why don't you want to include legendary actions in the DPR?

See above. Plus I don't use the same random approach to Legendary Actions.

I guess my approach just seems easier if you are going to revise the statblocks of import monsters and change the DMG guidelines, why not just revise the statblock and use the DMG guidelines?

The fact that your approach requires every monster to be completely remade suggests to me it isn't the easiest way to handle things. But when you read the book you can decide for yourself.

Got it.

Thank you for the reply, I understand what your plan is much better now. I still don't agree with it, but I think it work fine. I will just have to change the CR of all of your monsters

You'll be using my CRs after you read the book.

 

[dave2008]

hello again buddy!

Good morning to you and thank you for the reply! These will have to be quick reactions as I have to get to a meeting.

Which part, Legendary Abilities?

Quite a few things: resistances, immunities, saving throw proficiencies, and a whole host of features: avoidance, blood frenzy, constrict, damage transfer, magic resistance, nimble escape, pack tactics, parry, possession, etc.

My reasoning is this. If I create a CR 26 version of Orcus without Legendary Abilities he will do x amount of damage. If I were to create a CR 26 version of Orcus WITH Legendary Abilities he would deal x amount of damage MINUS the Legendary Abilities. Therefore adding Legendary Abilities weakens core monsters.

Are you saying you don't count legendary actions because they only act after another creatures turn? IMO, that is silly rules lawyering. It is clear the intent is that the legendary actions are supposed to part of its standard attack routine. However, I've rewritten legendary actions to clarify that. If you don't count them then that means a legendary monster could potentially be much more dangerous than the calculated CR. Unless you are not having legendary actions inflict any damage or conditions.

Now I should also add I have a simple guide to assigning Legendary Abilities so there is less of the randomness I have seen in the official rules.

I will have to wait and see I guess. I personally like the randomness of LA (depending on what you mean by randomness). The dragons have the most boring LA because they are all the same, random - or a least unique - legendary actions are the best IMO.

I'm tweaking them for good reason while solidifying the game mechanics behind Legendary Actions.

I will have to wait and see.

No I'm not saying that. Simply those are the two primary factors lacking in most official epic monsters.

OK, but that is only true if you are stuck with the idea that there is some golden CR. Like Orcus should be CR 26, no matter what difficult CR 26 actually is. That is just arbitrary IMO. Orcus should be the CR that allows him to be a badass. That could be CR 16, 26, or 76!

I'm suggesting DMs should check hit points and damage match the DMG Monster design guidelines and don't factor Legendary Actions.

So you would need to change the existing stat blocks to make it comply with your guidelines.

See above. Plus I don't use the same random approach to Legendary Actions.

The HP and DPR guidelines in the DMG are made with the intent that they are modified by other things in the DMG. IF you remove the other things you invalidate that table in the DMG. Again, in your approach you still have to change the stat block of every high CR unique monster. You just have to change it to match your guide instead of the DMG guide.

The fact that your approach requires every monster to be completely remade suggests to me it isn't the easiest way to handle things. But when you read the book you can decide for yourself.

The monsters in the book are the monsters in the book. If I want the demon lords to be stronger than the WotC version, they need to be remade whether it is your version of the CR guide or the official version of the CR guide. In fact, I could take your version of monster and the only additional change I would need to make (and would make) is to recalibrate the CR to match the DMG guidelines. They are, or could be, otherwise the same. There is no need to completely remade as you suggest. At least not anymore than how your system would need to remake them.

I will have to wait and see, but on the face of it I have serious concerns about your CR guideline changes.

You'll be using my CRs after you read the book.

I will see, but I doubt it. It just seems like you are cutting to much to me. But I will reserve final judgement. I look forward to the book. Good luck!

 

[le Redoutable]

instead of searching for Legendary Abilities you should better develop the Monster Races system :
you create and build your character by spending xp to purchase Monster Covers (that is, any Monster who provides data )
then, you assemble your character by merging a given Monster Cover and that, for each of the valid Alignments
( except perhaps for LN Monsters, who are rare ?? )
example :
LG Solaar
NG Unicorn
CG Storm Giant
CN Ettin
LE Vampire
NE Zombie
CE Troll

 

[dave2008]

OK a quick Orcus example. Please note, I would do a lot more to make Orcus a more interesting battle, but this looking primarily at HP and DPR and the minimum changes one could make to the stat block to make it more dangerous.

WotC Orcus

Spoiler

Orcus
Huge fiend (demon) , chaotic evil
---
Armor Class 17 (Natural Armor), 20 With The Wand Of Orcus
Hit Points 405 (30d12 + 210)
Speed 40 ft., fly 40 ft.
---

STR	DEX	CON	INT	WIS	CHA
27 (+8)	14 (+2)	25 (+7)	20 (+5)	20 (+5)	25 (+7)

---
Saving Throws DEX +10, CON +15, WIS +13
Skills Arcana +12
Damage Resistances Cold, Fire, Lightning
Damage Immunities Necrotic, Poison; Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks
Condition Immunities Charmed, Exhaustion, Frightened, Poisoned
Senses Truesight 120 ft., Passive Perception 22
Languages All, Telepathy 120 ft.
Challenge 26 (90,000 XP) Proficiency Bonus +8
---
Wand of Orcus. The wand has 7 charges, and any of its properties that require a saving throw have a save DC of 18. While holding it, Orcus can use an action to cast animate dead, blight, or speak with dead. Alternatively, he can expend 1 or more of the wand’s charges to cast one of the following spells from it: circle of death (1 charge), finger of death (1 charge), or power word kill (2 charges). The wand regains 1d4 + 3 charges daily at dawn.
While holding the wand, Orcus can use an action to conjure undead creatures whose combined average hit points don’t exceed 500. These undead magically rise up from the ground or otherwise form in unoccupied spaces within 300 feet of Orcus and obey his commands until they are destroyed or until he dismisses them as an action. Once this property of the wand is used, the property can’t be used again until the next dawn.

Innate Spellcasting. Orcus’s spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 23, +15 to hit with spell attacks). He can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components:
At will: chill touch (17th level), detect magic
3/day each: create undead, dispel magic
1/day: time stop

Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If Orcus fails a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead.

Magic Resistance. Orcus has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Magic Weapons. Orcus’s weapon attacks are magical.

Master of Undeath. When Orcus casts animate dead or create undead, he chooses the level at which the spell is cast, and the creatures created by the spells remain under his control indefinitely. Additionally, he can cast create undead even when it isn’t night.

Actions
Multiattack. Orcus makes two Wand of Orcus attacks.

Wand of Orcus. Melee Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 21 (3d8 + 8) bludgeoning damage plus 13 (2d12) necrotic damage.

Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +16 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 21 (3d8 + 8) piercing damage plus 9 (2d8) poison damage.

Legendary Actions
Orcus can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. Orcus regains spent legendary actions at the start of his turn.

Tail. Orcus makes one tail attack.
A Taste of Undeath. Orcus casts chill touch (17th level).
Creeping Death (Costs 2 Actions). Orcus chooses a point on the ground that he can see within 100 feet of him. A cylinder of swirling necrotic energy 60 feet tall and with a 10-foot radius rises from that point and lasts until the end of Orcus’s next turn. Creatures in that area are vulnerable to necrotic damage.

Orcus 2.0 (changes in bold red text)

Spoiler

Orcus
Huge fiend (demon) , chaotic evil
---
Armor Class 17 (Natural Armor), 20 With The Wand Of Orcus
Hit Points 620 (40d12 + 360)
Speed 40 ft., fly 40 ft.
---

STR	DEX	CON	INT	WIS	CHA
27 (+8)	14 (+2)	28 (+9)	20 (+5)	20 (+5)	25 (+7)

---
Saving Throws DEX +10, CON +15, WIS +13
Skills Arcana +12
Damage Resistances Cold, Fire, Lightning
Damage Immunities Necrotic, Poison; Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks
Condition Immunities Charmed, Exhaustion, Frightened, Poisoned
Senses Truesight 120 ft., Passive Perception 22
Languages All, Telepathy 120 ft.
Challenge 28 (105,000 XP)* Proficiency Bonus +8
---
Wand of Orcus. The wand has 7 charges, and any of its properties that require a saving throw have a save DC of 18. While holding it, Orcus can use an action to cast animate dead, blight, or speak with dead. Alternatively, he can expend 1 or more of the wand’s charges to cast one of the following spells from it: circle of death (1 charge), finger of death (1 charge), or power word kill (2 charges). The wand regains 1d4 + 3 charges daily at dawn.
While holding the wand, Orcus can use an action to conjure undead creatures whose combined average hit points don’t exceed 500. These undead magically rise up from the ground or otherwise form in unoccupied spaces within 300 feet of Orcus and obey his commands until they are destroyed or until he dismisses them as an action. Once this property of the wand is used, the property can’t be used again until the next dawn.

Innate Spellcasting. Orcus’s spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 23, +15 to hit with spell attacks). He can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components:
At will: chill touch (17th level), detect magic
3/day each: create undead, dispel magic
1/day: time stop

Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If Orcus fails a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead.

Magic Resistance. Orcus has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Magic Weapons. Orcus’s weapon attacks are magical.

Master of Undeath. When Orcus casts animate dead or create undead, he chooses the level at which the spell is cast, and the creatures created by the spells remain under his control indefinitely. Additionally, he can cast create undead even when it isn’t night.

Actions
Multiattack. Orcus makes two Wand of Orcus attacks.

Wand of Orcus. Melee Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 21 (3d8 + 11) bludgeoning damage plus 39 (6d12) necrotic damage and the target’s hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken,. The reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0. A creature slain in this way rises at the end of its next turn as a zombie under Orcus' control. (Didn't actually need to do this, but it feels thematically correct)

Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +16 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 21 (3d8 + 8) piercing damage plus 18 (4d8) poison damage.

Teleport. Orcus magically teleports, along with any equipment he is wearing and carrying, up to 120 feet to an unoccupied space he can see.

Legendary Actions
Orcus can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. Additionally, Orcus can take any unspent legendary actions at the end of the round. Orcus regains spent legendary actions at the start of his turn.

Tail. Orcus makes one tail attack.
A Taste of Undeath. Orcus casts chill touch (17th level).
Teleport. Orcus uses his Teleport action.
Unstoppable. Orcus removes one condition or effect it is suffering. It can do so if it has at least 1 hit point, even while unconscious or incapacitated.
Creeping Death (Costs 2 Actions). Orcus chooses a point on the ground that he can see within 100 feet of him. A cylinder of swirling necrotic energy 60 feet tall and with a 10-foot radius rises from that point and lasts until the end of Orcus’s next turn. Creatures in that area are vulnerable to necrotic damage.

*The CR calculated to be 27.5, so with the added feature to Wand of Orcus and WotC tends to round up, I made it CR 28

So I think that is a much more dangerous Orcus, it follows your HP and damage guidelines and the DMG guidelines and only moves the CR up to 28. This took 5-10 minutes. Now, if I really get into what I think a good design of Orcus would be, well that would take a lot more time, but it wouldn't change the CR.