Cost of magic items you create (SOLVED!!)
- Thread starter kreynolds
- Start date
Cougar
Felis Concolor
I attempted to break down relevant examples, using a fighter who found and bought magic items and a wizard who made magic items where the full market value and the creation cost were both used. I am assuming that we are using the tables in the DMG as a guideline for PC wealt. I am not going to get into the XP issue.
Both my wizard and fighter start with 5000 gp, not including equipment or PC created magic items.
The fighter finds a magic item worth 2000 gold. His total is now 7000.
Then he buys an item for 2000 gold. There is no change in his total (7000).
The wizard, after buying and finding similarly valued items, decided to make an item worth 2000. He spends 1000 on materials. His total wealth is now 6000. After completion his wealth, if full market value is used, is 8000. If creation cost was used for value he would still be at 7000.
The fighter has 3000 gp and 2 magic items worth 4000.
The wizard has 2000 gp and 3 magic items worth 6000.
It seems the table is not the best thing to use. If you buy magic items, then your wealth is much lower than a PC who has found all of their items, not to even include MAKING items.
Both my wizard and fighter start with 5000 gp, not including equipment or PC created magic items.
The fighter finds a magic item worth 2000 gold. His total is now 7000.
Then he buys an item for 2000 gold. There is no change in his total (7000).
The wizard, after buying and finding similarly valued items, decided to make an item worth 2000. He spends 1000 on materials. His total wealth is now 6000. After completion his wealth, if full market value is used, is 8000. If creation cost was used for value he would still be at 7000.
The fighter has 3000 gp and 2 magic items worth 4000.
The wizard has 2000 gp and 3 magic items worth 6000.
It seems the table is not the best thing to use. If you buy magic items, then your wealth is much lower than a PC who has found all of their items, not to even include MAKING items.
kreynolds
First Post
So, let me get this straight.
All of you believe that when a spellcaster makes his own items, they cost against him at half value.
If this is true, then a 10th level spellcaster would be able to carry around 132,000gp worth of gear, while a 10th level fighter would only be able to carry around 66,000gp worth of gear. Likewise, a 20th level spellcaster would be able to carry around 1,520,000gp worth of gear, while a 20th level fighter would only be able to carry around 760,000gp worth of gear.
However, according to the character wealth guidelines, a 10th level wizard with approximately 132,000gp worth of equipment, is actually equal in power to a character between 13th level (110,000gp) and 14th level (150,000gp). Seems a little funky to me. In fact, he would have enough gear that he would be more powerful than the rest of his party. That's a bit odd.
But of course, he spent the feats and the XP, so it makes perfect sense that he would have the power of a character 3 to 4 levels higher than himself, thereby exceeding the power levels of his party members.
...I don't think so. That just doesn't make sense to me, no matter how many feats he selected or how much XP he spent.
Now, I've seen the arguement that if a spellcaster creates a 2,000gp magic item, not only does it only count against him at half cost, but if he gives it to a fighter, it still only counts against the fighter at half cost because the spellcaster made it for him. The problem with this, of course, is that every single magic item in DnD was made by a spellcaster, so technically, every single magic item would only count at half cost, no matter who used it. If the spellcaster made the item for his friend in the party, would it still cost half? And if he made the item for someone purchasing it from him, would it count as full? Nah. That would imply that items made for friends are always half cost, though they count full against everyone else.
...Naturally, I don't buy this argument.
Here's another one for ya. A spellcaster has 10,000gp in coin to his name. He then creates a magic item worth 5,000gp. He has 5,000gp left in coin and a magic item that only counts against him at half cost. His total wealth is now 7,500gp. Wow. Look at that. He suddenly has another 2,500gp of wealth to work with. Later on, the spellcaster gets a hold of another 5,000gp in coin and he uses it to make a 5,000gp magic item. He only spends 2,500gp in coin to make the item. His wealth is now 10,000gp in raw coin(back to what he started, and he's still the same level), he possess 2 magic items that total 5,000gp, so his total wealth is 15,000gp.
So, spending money makes you more money, but only if you are a spellcaster, making your own stuff. I don't buy this either.
All of you believe that when a spellcaster makes his own items, they cost against him at half value.
If this is true, then a 10th level spellcaster would be able to carry around 132,000gp worth of gear, while a 10th level fighter would only be able to carry around 66,000gp worth of gear. Likewise, a 20th level spellcaster would be able to carry around 1,520,000gp worth of gear, while a 20th level fighter would only be able to carry around 760,000gp worth of gear.
However, according to the character wealth guidelines, a 10th level wizard with approximately 132,000gp worth of equipment, is actually equal in power to a character between 13th level (110,000gp) and 14th level (150,000gp). Seems a little funky to me. In fact, he would have enough gear that he would be more powerful than the rest of his party. That's a bit odd.
But of course, he spent the feats and the XP, so it makes perfect sense that he would have the power of a character 3 to 4 levels higher than himself, thereby exceeding the power levels of his party members.
...I don't think so. That just doesn't make sense to me, no matter how many feats he selected or how much XP he spent.
Now, I've seen the arguement that if a spellcaster creates a 2,000gp magic item, not only does it only count against him at half cost, but if he gives it to a fighter, it still only counts against the fighter at half cost because the spellcaster made it for him. The problem with this, of course, is that every single magic item in DnD was made by a spellcaster, so technically, every single magic item would only count at half cost, no matter who used it. If the spellcaster made the item for his friend in the party, would it still cost half? And if he made the item for someone purchasing it from him, would it count as full? Nah. That would imply that items made for friends are always half cost, though they count full against everyone else.
...Naturally, I don't buy this argument.
Here's another one for ya. A spellcaster has 10,000gp in coin to his name. He then creates a magic item worth 5,000gp. He has 5,000gp left in coin and a magic item that only counts against him at half cost. His total wealth is now 7,500gp. Wow. Look at that. He suddenly has another 2,500gp of wealth to work with. Later on, the spellcaster gets a hold of another 5,000gp in coin and he uses it to make a 5,000gp magic item. He only spends 2,500gp in coin to make the item. His wealth is now 10,000gp in raw coin(back to what he started, and he's still the same level), he possess 2 magic items that total 5,000gp, so his total wealth is 15,000gp.
So, spending money makes you more money, but only if you are a spellcaster, making your own stuff. I don't buy this either.
Artoomis
First Post
The REAL asnwer is that counting "made" items at EITHER 1/2 or full costs does not work right.
Sorry - but that's the way it is. That's because the cost in experience points does not offset the costs of the items, but it still certainly worth something.
The best "book" answer is probabaly to count them at 1/2 value. Why?
Let's take the fighter/wizard scenario.
Both at 13th level (110,000 gp).
If they both have full value, fine. Now let's assume a good portion of that value is in cash.
Still fine.
Now let's assume the wizard makes 50,000 gp worth of magic items - at a cost of 25,000 gp and 1,000 exp pts.
It seems to me that he should still be counted as having teh same value of "stuff." If you use "market value" - he'll suddenly have too much stuff - 135,00 gp worth.
If you somehow force the value down by eliminating some stuff, he'll have effectively spent a feat and 1,000 ex pts for nothing.
The unspoken assumption is that 1,000 experience points = 25,000 gold peices. Hwo you feel about that determines what you do about how you count created items.
Sorry - but that's the way it is. That's because the cost in experience points does not offset the costs of the items, but it still certainly worth something.
The best "book" answer is probabaly to count them at 1/2 value. Why?
Let's take the fighter/wizard scenario.
Both at 13th level (110,000 gp).
If they both have full value, fine. Now let's assume a good portion of that value is in cash.
Still fine.
Now let's assume the wizard makes 50,000 gp worth of magic items - at a cost of 25,000 gp and 1,000 exp pts.
It seems to me that he should still be counted as having teh same value of "stuff." If you use "market value" - he'll suddenly have too much stuff - 135,00 gp worth.
If you somehow force the value down by eliminating some stuff, he'll have effectively spent a feat and 1,000 ex pts for nothing.
The unspoken assumption is that 1,000 experience points = 25,000 gold peices. Hwo you feel about that determines what you do about how you count created items.
Cougar
Felis Concolor
I don't believe that they should count as half value. kreynolds, If you were replying directly to me then I think you misunderstood my post. I believe that the full market value should be used as a measure of power between players, however I question the effectiveness of the table at all.
I pointed out, or attempted to point out, that while the 2000 gp magic item has the same value, the methods of obtaining the item can wildly vary the table from the DMG.
It isn't just created items. It is purchased and found items as well. All three methods of obtaining items skew the table, leaving PCs with identically valued items with drastically different wealth levels.
For instance, a fighter has 5000 gold and finds three magic items totalling 5000 gp in value. His wealth level is now 10000 and he has 3 magic items worth 5000.
Another fighter has 5000 gold and PURCHASES three magic itmes worth 5000 total. His wealth level is now 5000 and he has three magic items worth 5000.
A wizard has 5000 gold and creates three items worth 5000 gold. To do this he spends 2500 gold in materials. He now has a wealth level of 7500 and three magic items worth 5000.
By the above examples you can see that the table does not take into account HOW the items were obtained, and this is obviously important. Perhaps two tables are needed, one for items and one for personal wealth, such as coins or gems and PCs should be checked against both. For instance, the second fighter who purchased his magic items could be given gold to even him out.
I do agree that the items and money should be at least checked against the table to ensure the PCs are not to far above or below the baseline or each other. In doing this, magic items, whether created, found, or purchased should all have the same value, because the power they represent to the PC is the same.
I pointed out, or attempted to point out, that while the 2000 gp magic item has the same value, the methods of obtaining the item can wildly vary the table from the DMG.
It isn't just created items. It is purchased and found items as well. All three methods of obtaining items skew the table, leaving PCs with identically valued items with drastically different wealth levels.
For instance, a fighter has 5000 gold and finds three magic items totalling 5000 gp in value. His wealth level is now 10000 and he has 3 magic items worth 5000.
Another fighter has 5000 gold and PURCHASES three magic itmes worth 5000 total. His wealth level is now 5000 and he has three magic items worth 5000.
A wizard has 5000 gold and creates three items worth 5000 gold. To do this he spends 2500 gold in materials. He now has a wealth level of 7500 and three magic items worth 5000.
By the above examples you can see that the table does not take into account HOW the items were obtained, and this is obviously important. Perhaps two tables are needed, one for items and one for personal wealth, such as coins or gems and PCs should be checked against both. For instance, the second fighter who purchased his magic items could be given gold to even him out.
I do agree that the items and money should be at least checked against the table to ensure the PCs are not to far above or below the baseline or each other. In doing this, magic items, whether created, found, or purchased should all have the same value, because the power they represent to the PC is the same.
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Ridley's Cohort
First Post
kreynolds said:
First of all, this wizard who has twice as much stuff by market value is a fiction. It doesn't work out that way in play. It can only happen if you build a high level wizard and the DM exercises no oversight on item crafting.
This is not a problem for low or medium level wizards using the core rules. Did you ever look at the prereqs for a Headband of Intellect?
You also have to remember that a lot of wealth will be thrown down a special giant drainhole called a Spellbook. Money goes in and never comes out.
Having a big spellbook adds to the fun of playing a wizard, but has only a small effect on increasing his raw power. The Big Reason to buy lots of spells is to make lots of scrolls on the cheap. That saves money in the long haul. In the short haul it is just money thrown away; the wizard is better off just buying scrolls.
Doesn't happen. The cost to create an item is 1/2 market value. The sale price of an item is 1/2 market value. All you would be doing is throwing away xp.
The wizard doesn't make money by creating items for himself at all. He only makes money when he creates items for his comrades. If the wizard is willing to lag behind in xp compared to his comrades for more cash, why do you need to stop him?
kreynolds, maybe I am being dense? Can you explain to me why the PCs in your campaign bother to craft items if all that happens is they lose xp, lose a feat, and get a lesser reward in their next treasure haul? Do you think that is how the designers intended the creation feats to work?
kreynolds
First Post
Ridley's Cohort said:
According to the way you do this, all spellcasters get twice the amount of stuff. Or are you saying that all of your spellcasters could have twice the amount of stuff, but they don't actually get twice the amount of stuff, thus they have the normal amount of stuff?
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Cougar said:
So what do you do when the fighter is 11th level with, say, 100k gp of stuff and the wizard is 10th level with 180k gp of stuff?
Do you take away 80k of stuff from the wizard and give him back the 10000 xp he spent?
It is unavoidable that item creation feats will affect the wealth of the character who takes them. That is how they are supposed to work.
