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D&D 5E Could a Sorcerer with a 1 Wizard dip fulfill everything unique about a wizard?

Asisreo

Archdevil's Advocate
No, that's exactly the point. They can only prepare as if they were single classed, and since a single classed wizard at 1st level cannot prepare anything other than first level spells
This is the very point I'm debating.

Its the order of operations that you're taking which is the issue. You're saying that 1st-level wizards cannot prepare anything other than 1st-level spells because the wizard is first level but no such restrictions exist. The wizard can prepare any spell regardless of level as long as they have the spell slot for it. Its just that single-classed wizards would usually only have 1st-level spells.

If a magic item granted this 1st-level wizard a second-level spell slot, the wizard would be able to prepare a second-level spell because he has the slot for it.
 

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This is the very point I'm debating.

Its the order of operations that you're taking which is the issue. You're saying that 1st-level wizards cannot prepare anything other than 1st-level spells because the wizard is first level but no such restrictions exist. The wizard can prepare any spell regardless of level as long as they have the spell slot for it. Its just that single-classed wizards would usually only have 1st-level spells.

If a magic item granted this 1st-level wizard a second-level spell slot, the wizard would be able to prepare a second-level spell because he has the slot for it.
Play as you like.
If you are the DM and you think, that it makes thr game more balanced, go for it.

I rather think that having a sorcerer that has all a wizard does and more is not... Even if the sorcerer class could need some tiny upgrade.
 

This is the very point I'm debating.

Its the order of operations that you're taking which is the issue. You're saying that 1st-level wizards cannot prepare anything other than 1st-level spells because the wizard is first level but no such restrictions exist. The wizard can prepare any spell regardless of level as long as they have the spell slot for it. Its just that single-classed wizards would usually only have 1st-level spells.

If a magic item granted this 1st-level wizard a second-level spell slot, the wizard would be able to prepare a second-level spell because he has the slot for it.

You didn't get the extra spell slots from a magic item. You got them from multiclassing. "As if you were a single-classed member of that class" does not mean "as if you were a single-classed member of that class, but also gaining the benefits of multiclassing."

They explicitly include a multiclassed wizard example, so I'm not sure why you think multiclassed wizards aren't covered by the rules. The R4/W3 example in the rules on D&D Beyond has 2 3rd-level slots, and the rules explicitly say he has access to only 2nd-level wizard spells.


You are arguing at this point, not about what the rules say, but what you wish the rules said. Perhaps it would be nice if R4/W3 got to cast Fireball, but he does not, and the rules say so.
 

Esbee

Dungeon Master at large.
This is the very point I'm debating.

Its the order of operations that you're taking which is the issue. You're saying that 1st-level wizards cannot prepare anything other than 1st-level spells because the wizard is first level but no such restrictions exist. The wizard can prepare any spell regardless of level as long as they have the spell slot for it. Its just that single-classed wizards would usually only have 1st-level spells.

If a magic item granted this 1st-level wizard a second-level spell slot, the wizard would be able to prepare a second-level spell because he has the slot for it.

Going by the letter of the law, so to speak, you could possibly make a case for a Single classed wizard who has his spell slots somehow artificially increased being able to scribe and prepare a spell that is normally higher than his ability to cast.

This, to my mind, would be contrary to the spirit of the rules and I personally wouldn't allow it, but if in your game you see it as logical then all the power to you.

To that end, by the letter of the rules, a multiclass wizard would still be barred from preparing and scribing spells higher than they can cast as a single class, even if they have a higher level spell slot. This restriction is clearly defined.

A wizard can only prepare wizard spells they have in their spell book. (PHB pg 114)

A wizard can only scribe spells into their book if it is of a level they can prepare. (PHB pg 114)

You prepare spells for each class individually as if you were single classed. (PHB pg 164) - which suggests that in calculating what you can prepare you would compare your spell slots of a single classed character NOT a multiclassed character. A single classed 1st level wizard has 2 first level spell slots. You don't count your actual final spell slot availability based on multiclassing for determining what can be prepared. That's covered in the next section:

If you have more than one spellcasting class, and you have spell slots of a higher level than you can normally prepare, you can use those slots but only to cast your lower level spells (PHB pg 164) - this line in particular is a very clear restriction as to what the slots can be used for.
 

Dausuul

Legend
"...as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

Does not mean:

"...as if you were a single-classed member of that class, except you can keep some of the benefits of multiclassing."

You only have spell slots above 1st-level because you are multiclassed. If you were a single-classed wizard, you would not have those spell slots. If you had a magic item that granted you 2nd-level slots, maybe it would help you out. But you don't.

In the end, of course, the person you need to convince is your DM; but if you're looking for arguments to win your DM over, you would be better off making the case for this as a house rule, rather than trying to claim that it's the Official Rule. It isn't.
 

Asisreo

Archdevil's Advocate
"...as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

Does not mean:

"...as if you were a single-classed member of that class, except you can keep some of the benefits of multiclassing."

You only have spell slots above 1st-level because you are multiclassed. If you were a single-classed wizard, you would not have those spell slots. If you had a magic item that granted you 2nd-level slots, maybe it would help you out. But you don't.

In the end, of course, the person you need to convince is your DM; but if you're looking for arguments to win your DM over, you would be better off making the case for this as a house rule, rather than trying to claim that it's the Official Rule. It isn't.
I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything.

I'm trying to get into the rules of the game as they're written. While I appreciate the sentiments about asking the DM, I'm not necessarily looking for that type of discussion.

Let me make a more...practical example.

Say a 15th level wizard found a Ring of Three Wishes and got impatient. He decided he wanted a 9th-level spell now and wished it into existence. The DM decides its fine but monkey paws it to say it can not be recovered in a day.

Lets say the wizard kept the slot but multiclassed into Cleric aiming for healing word, just in case. The wizard has his new spells he can put in his book. He has a 9th-level spell not from either multiclassing nor single class progression. Its an external 9th-level spell.

He should be able, by RAW (though probably not RAI), to learn a 9th-level spell.

Multiclassing did not interfere with his spellcasting feature's ability to prepare spells that he have slots for. Multiclassing, of itself, has no restrictions to what you can know or prepare, it just asks that you pretend you're single-classed into this specific class.

Now, lets say you got an external spell slot not from a wish spell or magic item, but from a different class feature. Lets say you've obtained a mysterious 5th level spell slot as a Sorcerer 7/Wizard 1. Technically, neither classes natively give you this spell slot but you're able to synthesize this slot. Is this not yet another case of an external spell slot being given to a wizard and the wizard being able to now prepare higher level spells than before?
 

Esbee

Dungeon Master at large.
Let me make a more...practical example.

Say a 15th level wizard found a Ring of Three Wishes and got impatient. He decided he wanted a 9th-level spell now and wished it into existence. The DM decides its fine but monkey paws it to say it can not be recovered in a day.

Lets say the wizard kept the slot but multiclassed into Cleric aiming for healing word, just in case. The wizard has his new spells he can put in his book. He has a 9th-level spell not from either multiclassing nor single class progression. Its an external 9th-level spell.

Okay, so what you are suggesting here is a fringe example that could 100% legally apply because WISH by its nature changes the rules. It doesn't have to honour the baseline RAW because it creates a scenario that goes beyond the printed rules.

It would ultimately be up to the DM to allow it or not.

But your original idea of dipping into 1 level of wizard to bypass the limitation would 100% not work going by RAW.
 
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Dausuul

Legend
Lets say you got an external spell slot not from a wish spell or magic item, but from a different class feature. Lets say you've obtained a mysterious 5th level spell slot as a Sorcerer 7/Wizard 1. Technically, neither classes natively give you this spell slot but you're able to synthesize this slot.
You're making up some kind of bizarre Schrodinger's spell slot that is simultaneously a class feature, yet not granted by any of your classes. This is absurd.

Pick something that is actually in the rulebook, that grants you a spell slot, and we can discuss how it interacts with the multiclass rules.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Now, lets say you got an external spell slot not from a wish spell or magic item, but from a different class feature. Lets say you've obtained a mysterious 5th level spell slot as a Sorcerer 7/Wizard 1. Technically, neither classes natively give you this spell slot but you're able to synthesize this slot. Is this not yet another case of an external spell slot being given to a wizard and the wizard being able to now prepare higher level spells than before?

Short answer: No.

slightly longer answer: No, because the rules clearly say otherwise.

Answer with support from the rules:

Relevant section: "For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don't know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects."

If the rules worked as you propose, this character would get 2nd level ranger spells AND 3rd level Wizard spells - they don't.

I think the confusion is that it's easy to think of Sorcerer and Wizard spells as the same - they are not. They are completely different spell lists (as different as the wizard and cleric lists). Or to put another way, if multiclass spellcasting worked the way you claim a Wiz1/Cleric16 would get access to both 9th level cleric spells AND 9th level wizard spells! 100% clearly not the case and nowhere near RAI either.
 

If a DM grants an extra spell slot to a multiclassed character via some sort of item or magical blessing, it's up to the DM to decide how to apply that within the context of multiclassing, since there's no RAW for that. Presumably, any DM who creates such a special item already has in mind how he's going to use it and a player who tries to rules-litigate his way into some other use will probably find the item quickly qualified to close any loopholes.

DM discretion in homebrew magical item has no bearing whatsoever on the multiclassing rules.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything.

I'm trying to get into the rules of the game as they're written. While I appreciate the sentiments about asking the DM, I'm not necessarily looking for that type of discussion.

Let me make a more...practical example.

Say a 15th level wizard found a Ring of Three Wishes and got impatient. He decided he wanted a 9th-level spell now and wished it into existence. The DM decides its fine but monkey paws it to say it can not be recovered in a day.

Lets say the wizard kept the slot but multiclassed into Cleric aiming for healing word, just in case. The wizard has his new spells he can put in his book. He has a 9th-level spell not from either multiclassing nor single class progression. Its an external 9th-level spell.

He should be able, by RAW (though probably not RAI), to learn a 9th-level spell.

Multiclassing did not interfere with his spellcasting feature's ability to prepare spells that he have slots for. Multiclassing, of itself, has no restrictions to what you can know or prepare, it just asks that you pretend you're single-classed into this specific class.

Now, lets say you got an external spell slot not from a wish spell or magic item, but from a different class feature. Lets say you've obtained a mysterious 5th level spell slot as a Sorcerer 7/Wizard 1. Technically, neither classes natively give you this spell slot but you're able to synthesize this slot. Is this not yet another case of an external spell slot being given to a wizard and the wizard being able to now prepare higher level spells than before?

On another note:

A DM that allows a wish from a ring of 3 wishes to give a 9th level slot, even once, isn't "monkey's paw"ing.

He's being absurdly generous.

Wish can't replicate a 9th level spell, much less allow someone to suddenly have a 9th level slot available for use.
 

Esbee

Dungeon Master at large.
On another note:

A DM that allows a wish from a ring of 3 wishes to give a 9th level slot, even once, isn't "monkey's paw"ing.

He's being absurdly generous.

Wish can't replicate a 9th level spell, much less allow someone to suddenly have a 9th level slot available for use.

I dunno, as DM I'd totally allow a wish to grant a 9th level slot... which could then only be used to upcast a cantrip! :ROFLMAO:
 


auburn2

Adventurer
So, when discussions about Wizards and Sorcerers come up, there's talk about ritual casting, spells known, and the ability to write down spells, right?

Well, what about if a sorcerer takes a 1 level dip into wizard?

Really, the wizard's entire benefits are basically in their spellbook. A spellbook that any character can get at level 1.

Another point, however, is that sorcerers are full casters and dipping into the wizards do not interfere with their spell slot acquisition rate. The only thing that is reduced is sorcerer points and the higher level spell known that you would've gotten.

However, taking this dip at, say, level 7 lets you put all your spells known into scrolls which can then be put into your spellbook. This lets you "forget" the spells on level up without actually forgetting them, they're now wizard spells.

A sorcerer also gets the ability to add spells to their overall list via spellbooks and scrolls external to their character. That way, if a sorcerer feels like they don't have enough, the DM is free to give them more.
I strongly disagree for the following reasons.

1. The power of the wizard is not the book, it is the schools and the spells. Things like Bladesong, portent, hypnotic gaze, sculp spells, instinctive charm, song of defense, benign transportation, grim harvest, undead thralls - these things are the wizards equivalent of sorcery points and not having them means you are not comparable to a true wizard of the same level.

2. Spell list - The wizard has the best spell list of any class. The Sorcerer is a close second, but it is still second.

3. Flexibility - A wizard can change their spells every time they long rest which makes them far more versitile and allows him to change his focus every long rest.. If my sorcerer picked a bunch of fire spells and the party has to descend into hell to fight devils, well they are in a pickle. Wizard could rest and prepare other spells instead and still be very effective. Further even if he never copied a single spell to his spell book, beyond what he gets on level up, he still generally can prepare more spells per dy than a sorcerer knows. This means the advantage on spells is clearly in the wizards favor.

4. My understanding of RAW you would need a 11th-level "dip" or the ritual caster feat to get the ability to cast like D. Instant Summonings as a ritual, less for other spells, but a 1-level dip would only give you 1st level rituals. 1st level rituals are pretty good, no doubt but it is not the same as an actual wizard.
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
As stated beforehand taking the ritual caster feat is the way if you want this.
Ritual caster is a very limited way to get ritual casting. If I wanted ritual casting so badly for my sorcerer, I would get three levels of warlock for a better version and more functionality out of the deal. But I wouldn't spend a feat on ritual casting.
 

auburn2

Adventurer
Ritual caster is a very limited way to get ritual casting. If I wanted ritual casting so badly for my sorcerer, I would get three levels of warlock for a better version and more functionality out of the deal. But I wouldn't spend a feat on ritual casting.
Three levels of warlock is going to put you further behind than 1 feat I think.

ritual caster can be awesome in a party without a wizard or cleric. All those utility spells like identify, detect magic, lemunds hut, comprehend languages, find familiar.

Find Familiar alone is probably worth the feat.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Not at all.

My book says that as long as its a wizard spell and you have a spell slot, you can add it to your spellbook.
The book says, "Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table."

On the wizard table you only have level 1 slots, since you are a level 1 wizard.

It wouldn't matter anyway. At 1st level a wizard gets, "At 1st level, you have a spellbook containing six 1st-level wizard spells of your choice." Period. You don't have anything resembling the choice you are indicating. The wizard only gets to add wizard spells of higher than 1st when you can a level, which would be more than a 1 level dip.

And lastly, specific beats general, and the following is from the specific multi-classing rules.

"If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower level spell that you cast."

So again, since a 1st level wizard is only assigned 1st level spell slots, all of those higher level wizard spells you placed in the spellbook are useless. You can only prepare 1st level wizard spells and then pump them higher with the other slots.
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Three levels of warlock is going to put you further behind than 1 feat I think.

ritual caster can be awesome in a party without a wizard or cleric. All those utility spells like identify, detect magic, lemunds hut, comprehend languages, find familiar.

Find Familiar alone is probably worth the feat.
But it is a marginal benefit. I mean, you can get Find familiar with the ritual feat or the initiate feat, but only one of these turns you into a mini-wizard, except worse. There is no point in doing that when you can have a wizard with the metamagic feat instead. Do you want a spellbook? there is no point to not being a wizard then. If you still insist on having sorcerer and rituals, then at least three levels of warlock gives you access to the equivalent of the sorcerer capstone, more spells known, a reliable way to contribute to combat and access to every ritual in the game. At least that way, there is more synergy. (Or you could be a warlock with the metamagic feat) Basically ritual caster is a bad way of getting ritual casting when there are other options that work better.
 

Dausuul

Legend
But it is a marginal benefit. I mean, you can get Find familiar with the ritual feat or the initiate feat, but only one of these turns you into a mini-wizard, except worse. There is no point in doing that when you can have a wizard with the metamagic feat instead. Do you want a spellbook? there is no point to not being a wizard then. If you still insist on having sorcerer and rituals, then at least three levels of warlock gives you access to the equivalent of the sorcerer capstone, more spells known, a reliable way to contribute to combat and access to every ritual in the game. At least that way, there is more synergy. (Or you could be a warlock with the metamagic feat) Basically ritual caster is a bad way of getting ritual casting when there are other options that work better.
Except for the part where you spend the overwhelming majority of the game three levels behind every other caster! You don't even benefit from multiclassed spell slots--warlock slots don't stack with anything. So when a normal caster would first gain access to 5th-level spells, you'll still be slinging 3rd.

The only way this build makes the slightest bit of sense is if you play it as a "sorlock," converting sorcerer spell slots into metamagic to power out insane eldritch blast damage. That's a powerful and effective build, but it is not remotely like playing a normal sorcerer. If what you wanted was a sorcerer with rituals, this is a terrible way to go about it.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
If what you wanted was a sorcerer with rituals, this is a terrible way to go about it.

The ritual caster feat isn't any better for this. Or well, it depends by what you mean by a sorcerer with rituals. If you want a sorcerer that can cast some spells as rituals, then you are better serviced by a level of bard -just pick four rituals for your spells known-. Now if you mean a sorcerer who keeps a ritual book and can collect rituals... How is that different from a wizard with metamagic? If you want a wizard with metamagic, then be a wizard and pick the metamagic adept feat! It blends well with a wizard, and there aren't a lot of feats wizards want anyway. If you really have to have sorcerer in the character sheet, and more metamagic the three levels of warlock at least give you a solid base -if you are sacrificing stuff for having a knock off wizard with metamagic, then at least get the best you can get and the most bang for your book-. The Ritual caster feat has non-trivial costs for a sorcerer, first, having a tertiary stat at 13 comes at the cost of your main stat, or your CON/DEX, then it is competing with other feats that help sorcerers in the long run (Magic initiate and metamagic adept).
 

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