D&D 5E Could Tongues Work on an Ape?

[Iry]

Apes use a language of gestures and simple sounds in their own life, so they certainly have a language of their own. They are also capable of slightly more advanced linguistics, and can be trained in sign language and simple mimic words.

I don't see any reason why Tongues would not work on them, unless the DM feels that their inability to form our words prevents them from speaking back. In which case, the Ape should at least be able to understand you to the limits of its intelligence and wisdom.

 

[cbwjm]

Unless taught a language, I'd run with speak with animals as a means of communication. I wouldn't consider the ape to have a language.

Still, if you want, you could say that they are at a higher level of sentience than other animals, sort of in between bestial grunts and a complex language. It might be that both speak with animals and tongues works on them.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Tarzan is certainly enjoyable, but, in the game of Dungeons & Dragons, an ape neither speaks nor understands any language.

Well, an ape with tongues cast on it definitely understands a language. There's no requirements at all there, and an ape is as smart as some PCs.

The only issue here is whether it can speak.

I personally think the PHB description of the beast type is ridiculously simplistic to the point of uselessness, as if the author had one specific animal (A domesticated cow as imagined by someone who has never actually seen one up close, perhaps?) in mind when he wrote it and didn't take into account anything else. I'm hard pressed to think of a wild animal that doesn't communicate or have societal structure.

Do apes communicate verbally with one another? Certainly. Does that qualify as 'speaking'? Up to the DM. I'd lean towards yes. Who cares if a 3rd level spell can replicate a 1st level one?

To the OP: you could also try polymorphing the ape into a giant owl, then using detect thoughts for two-way communications. Giant owls are CR 1/4 and understand common, which also makes them legal targets for detect thoughts.

Finally once you have 5th level spells, telepathic bond explicitly lets you communicate with anything int 2 or higher.

 

[Matita]

Yeah I had the same argument, Ape's can speak (In my opinion) it turned into a RAI vs. RAW, the spell doesn't state the creature "speaking" needs to speak a formal language (such as common or elvish.)

So if you look up the definition of "speech" I would say the sounds an Ape makes definitely at least can convey its feelings.
So now we're philosophically debating the definition of "speaking". All I wanted to do was talk to a giant monkey.

If I were DMing it I'd rule in favor of it immediately without a second thought I didn't expect the other player in this game to argue it to the extent he did lol. I hope my DM lets it slide it'd suck if animals were cut off from my Tongues list.

 

[mrpopstar]

Apes use a language of gestures and simple sounds in their own life, so they certainly have a language of their own. They are also capable of slightly more advanced linguistics, and can be trained in sign language and simple mimic words.

I don't see any reason why Tongues would not work on them, unless the DM feels that their inability to form our words prevents them from speaking back. In which case, the Ape should at least be able to understand you to the limits of its intelligence and wisdom.

I'm merely going by the creature's stat block, which explicitly states that an ape neither speaks nor understands any language.

I personally think the PHB description of the beast type is ridiculously simplistic to the point of uselessness, as if the author had one specific animal (A domesticated cow as imagined by someone who has never actually seen one up close, perhaps?) in mind when he wrote it and didn't take into account anything else. I'm hard pressed to think of a wild animal that doesn't communicate or have societal structure.

I welcome the game's simplicity most in these scenarios.

--

I don't disagree that apes are remarkably intelligent in real life, but communication and social structure aren't indicative of language and society. (Not as far as Dungeons & Dragons is concerned.)

 

[fuindordm]

I'd say the rule of cool applies here. Is the player who controls Mongo interested in exploring this development? Will letting the spell work result in more fun for the group? Then let it work, and accept the side effects of the decision on your setting, which is that the apes of your world are smart enough to have at least a rudimentary language of their own in the wild. Or just say that long association with a human has exposed Mongo to enough complex communication that the spell works normally.

Or say it doesn't work, and downgrade poor Mongo to just a pawn in the game of life.

Without wanting to start a cognitive science flame war, I think that IRL it is pretty clear that "intelligence" is really just a large collection of skills, and that different brains have different aptitudes in these skills. Self-awareness is just one skill, a capacity for abstract language is another. And in the continuum of braininess, several animal species are within spitting distance of humans, even if they are not high on the self-awareness or abstract language scales: dolphins (who blow us out of the water--forgive the pun--on the 3D visualization mental skill), apes, elephants (brilliant community managers), and certain species of parrot come to mind. I've even read research that prairie dogs can communicate specific information on the number, type, and even size of creatures intruding into their territory.

Have fun with your game! It sounds like your players are.

Ben

 

[Tallifer]

I'd say the rule of cool applies here. Is the player who controls Mongo interested in exploring this development? Will letting the spell work result in more fun for the group? Then let it work, and accept the side effects of the decision on your setting, which is that the apes of your world are smart enough to have at least a rudimentary language of their own in the wild. Or just say that long association with a human has exposed Mongo to enough complex communication that the spell works normally.

Or say it doesn't work, and downgrade poor Mongo to just a pawn in the game of life.

Without wanting to start a cognitive science flame war, I think that IRL it is pretty clear that "intelligence" is really just a large collection of skills, and that different brains have different aptitudes in these skills. Self-awareness is just one skill, a capacity for abstract language is another. And in the continuum of braininess, several animal species are within spitting distance of humans, even if they are not high on the self-awareness or abstract language scales: dolphins (who blow us out of the water--forgive the pun--on the 3D visualization mental skill), apes, elephants (brilliant community managers), and certain species of parrot come to mind. I've even read research that prairie dogs can communicate specific information on the number, type, and even size of creatures intruding into their territory.

Have fun with your game! It sounds like your players are.

Ben

Forsooth. Why always limit yourself as some here do within the strictures of the rules? Occasionally you have to bend or break the rules and have some fun. Which is why I as a dungeon master would opt for the Tarzan option, rather than the stat block. However, another dungeon master could equally be right if he preferred the stat block, because breaking that particular rule might ruin the fun in his particular campaign.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The compromise option might be to allow the Tongues spell to speak to and understand animals, but unlike the Speak with Animals spell, it is limited to the animal's normal communication capacity.
Thus you could use it to give and understand the signals that a wolf could give another wolf, or the way that Mongo could communicate with another ape, but not have a full-on conversation including concepts that the animal would not usually have (which the Speak with Animals spell generally translates.)

 

[Storyteller Hero]

Could Tongues work on an Ape?

Apes may not appreciate being courted in such a manner. Try offering a fruit basket first, and perhaps things will work out.

 

[jasper]

arrrggh Please leave your Jane Goodall research at the door and "Quick getting your science all over my fantasy!" It is a 1 hour spell which in this case dups a 1st. Allow it. Now Grape Ape is not going to beat a word games or puns but you can talk to like you would a normal gamer hopped up a the DEW.