D&D 5E Counter-Attack Monk Build Ideas?

[doctorbadwolf]

Okay, I don’t think I’d give the feat Unarmored defense, actually. That should remain fairly localized in classes, and I’d like the feat to be good for Monks as well.

So, what about the ability to add prof to AC while wearing light or no armor, and not using a shield, deflect melee attack, choice of one other ki ability, and 2 ki per short rest?

 

[Rune]

Okay, I don’t think I’d give the feat Unarmored defense, actually. That should remain fairly localized in classes, and I’d like the feat to be good for Monks as well.

So, what about the ability to add prof to AC while wearing light or no armor, and not using a shield, deflect melee attack, choice of one other ki ability, and 2 ki per short rest?

If you add prof to AC with light armor, that’s a no-brainer for light-armor classes. It’s huge!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If you add prof to AC with light armor, that’s a no-brainer for light-armor classes. It’s huge!

You’re right, of course.

Hmmm.

Perhaps prof to AC while Unarmored, then.

 

[Rune]

You’re right, of course.

Hmmm.

Perhaps prof to AC while Unarmored, then.

It would need to be a base AC of 10 + Proficiency so it couldn’t stack with other sources. Maxes at AC 22 by level 17 (well, 23 with a Manual of Quickness of Action), which isn’t that bad compared to magic armors and shields.

 

[Rune]

It would need to be a base AC of 10 + Proficiency so it couldn’t stack with other sources. Maxes at AC 22 by level 17 (well, 23 with a Manual of Quickness of Action), which isn’t that bad compared to magic armors and shields.

Of course, if the intent is for it to be able to stack with other AC sources, that’s doable, but half proficiency would be better. A +1 to +3 AC is almost worth a feat on its own.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Of course, if the intent is for it to be able to stack with other AC sources, that’s doable, but half proficiency would be better. A +1 to +3 AC is almost worth a feat on its own.

Yeah, maybe we skip the AC part on this feat, or leave it at +1 AC while Unarmored.

But looking at some feats, there is a good bit of room here.

So,

You learn Deflect Melee Attack, and one other Monk Ki ability of your choice, and gain 3 ki per short rest, and you gain +1 AC while you are not wearing any armor.
In order to be equal to Fey Touched, it needs a chunky second benefit, or a half-ASI.

 

[Rune]

Yeah, maybe we skip the AC part on this feat, or leave it at +1 AC while Unarmored.

But looking at some feats, there is a good bit of room here.

So,

You learn Deflect Melee Attack, and one other Monk Ki ability of your choice, and gain 3 ki per short rest, and you gain +1 AC while you are not wearing any armor.
In order to be equal to Fey Touched, it needs a chunky second benefit, or a half-ASI.

That looks pretty good. 3 ki is probably a bit much, though, compared with martial adept or metamagic adept, which don’t come with AC bonuses. 2 ki seems better.

Now that I’m thinking of it, that AC bonus makes this feat a no-brainer for the monk. It is definitely better than a Dex ASI for them. I think the feat should probably give 2 ki and trade the AC for a half Dex/Wis ASI. [edit: Actually, even that seems too strong for a short-rest resource. Probably either lose the half ASI, or drop to 1 ki.]


On an unrelated monk note, my brother is far more the student of monk-related practices and philosophies than I. He generally has two big problems with the D&D monk.

One of them (the lack of ability to play them reactively), I addressed with subclass I posted above. The second is broader. He really chafes at the monks’ inability to grapple through precision instead of strength. In his view, the ability to use Dex to grapple should be a part of the monk’s Martial Arts.

I’m inclined to agree, but would also add it to the Grappler feat, which needs help.

Replacing Str (Athletics) with Dex (Athletics) to grapple would be simple enough, but I think it would be better to add Dex to the Str (Athletics). This still makes it useful with barbarian’s advantage to Str checks. Also, I like to provide reasons for Dex-builds not to dump Str and vice versa.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That looks pretty good. 3 ki is probably a bit much, though, compared with martial adept or metamagic adept, which don’t come with AC bonuses. 2 ki seems better.

Now that I’m thinking of it, that AC bonus makes this feat a no-brainer for the monk. It is definitely better than a Dex ASI for them. I think the feat should probably give 2 ki and trade the AC for a half Dex/Wis ASI. [edit: Actually, even that seems too strong for a short-rest resource. Probably either lose the half ASI, or drop to 1 ki.]


On an unrelated monk note, my brother is far more the student of monk-related practices and philosophies than I. He generally has two big problems with the D&D monk.

One of them (the lack of ability to play them reactively), I addressed with subclass I posted above. The second is broader. He really chafes at the monks’ inability to grapple through precision instead of strength. In his view, the ability to use Dex to grapple should be a part of the monk’s Martial Arts.

I’m inclined to agree, but would also add it to the Grappler feat, which needs help.

Replacing Str (Athletics) with Dex (Athletics) to grapple would be simple enough, but I think it would be better to add Dex to the Str (Athletics). This still makes it useful with barbarian’s advantage to Str checks. Also, I like to provide reasons for Dex-builds not to dump Str and vice versa.

I like the thought of adding Dex mod to grapple checks.

As for the feat, I’m comparing them to spell granting feats like Fey Touched, which grant a level and level 1 spell. For most monk subclasses that have spells, the spell is valued at 1ki per spell level (this is part of why 4elements is bad), which puts them at 3 ki. This one does refresh on a short rest, but also has less of a value in each usage than a lot of spells.

But since the deflect reaction only costs ki if you counterattack, which is basically a cantrip, I guess 2 ki could work.

+1 AC is less good than +1 Dex, though. This feat is competitive with an ASI, which is where feats should generally be.

Dual Wielder isn’t a no-brained for Monks, after all, and it gives a +1 AC. Hell, it isn’t even considered a no brained for melee rogues.

This would be somewhere between that feat and the best PHB feats, I reckon.

 

[Rune]

I like the thought of adding Dex mod to grapple checks.

As for the feat, I’m comparing them to spell granting feats like Fey Touched, which grant a level and level 1 spell. For most monk subclasses that have spells, the spell is valued at 1ki per spell level (this is part of why 4elements is bad), which puts them at 3 ki. This one does refresh on a short rest, but also has less of a value in each usage than a lot of spells.

Well, the short rest refresh effectively doubles or triples the ki. But, since you mention it, fey touched (and similar feats) are (to my mind) generally much better than the various adept feats, specifically because of the half-ASIs.

+1 AC is less good than +1 Dex, though. This feat is competitive with an ASI, which is where feats should generally be.

Dual Wielder isn’t a no-brained for Monks, after all, and it gives a +1 AC. Hell, it isn’t even considered a no brained for melee rogues.

This would be somewhere between that feat and the best PHB feats, I reckon.

The reason Dual Wielder isn’t a good option is because:
• it increases AC by +1 and effectively increases each hit’s damage by +1 (d6 to d8), while a Dex ASI does the same, but also increases attacks by +1.
• Dual Wielder still doesn’t help two-weapon fighting scale with higher levels.
• it’s boring. Most feats allow you do interesting things, generally rewriting the rules situationally. The only things Dual Wielder allows you to do differently are use bigger weapons (always on and easily forgettable) and draw two weapons at once (yay?).

As for the Fey Touched and similar feats, I’d much rather choose two of them for a spell-caster than a non-half-ASI feat + an ASI. Conclussion: they are more powerful than other feats. That said, before Tasha’s there weren’t enough caster-useful feats to choose from, so they’re probably okay, specifically because the stat bump is only for a casting stat.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well, the short rest refresh effectively doubles or triples the ki. But, since you mention it, fey touched (and similar feats) are (to my mind) generally much better than the various adept feats, specifically because of the half-ASIs.


The reason Dual Wielder isn’t a good option is because:
• it increases AC by +1 and effectively increases each hit’s damage by +1 (d6 to d8), while a Dex ASI does the same, but also increases attacks by +1.
• Dual Wielder still doesn’t help two-weapon fighting scale with higher levels.
• it’s boring. Most feats allow you do interesting things, generally rewriting the rules situationally. The only things Dual Wielder allows you to do differently are use bigger weapons (always on and easily forgettable) and draw two weapons at once (yay?).

As for the Fey Touched and similar feats, I’d much rather choose two of them for a spell-caster than a non-half-ASI feat + an ASI. Conclussion: they are more powerful than other feats. That said, before Tasha’s there weren’t enough caster-useful feats to choose from, so they’re probably okay, specifically because the stat bump is only for a casting stat.

I’d say instead that magic initiate and other older magic feats are weaker than average, and needed a boost or replacement.

Their stated logic is that you can go for a bigger punch the more specific a feat is, which is why, say, Drow High Magic can be so much more powerful in terms of spell levels.

All that said, I think the feat is cool as hell without a big AC boost, so I’ll review it again later.