Counterspelling--What's the lowdown?

[Legildur]

I play in two live games (large crossover of players, just different DMs).

We've been playing 3.0 and the 3.5 when they both came out. We play every 2 weeks for 4-5 hours in combat heavy campaigns.

Last week, my Druid 10 was the first of any of us to use the counterspell readied action since we started 3.x! Everyone was surprised by the tactic.

On reflection, I have no idea why I memorised Dispel Magic given it is more efficient for a Cleric or Sorcerer/Wizard to prepare/cast (Drd4 v Clr/Sor/Wiz3), but it shut down a summon spell from a succubi and probably saved us some extra grief we didn't need. Mind you, the magic missile from the wizard achieved the same effect on the other succubi when it failed its concentration check.

QUESTIONS:

My question is, can you choose which mode to use to counterspell when the option comes up? That is, when your readied action activates can you choose whether to use the same or opposite spell, or Dispel Magic, or Greater Dispel Magic at the time, or does it have to be preselected as the chosen method?

If you readied, are you required to counterspell? Or can you forfeit your action? For example, what if the spellcraft check revealed that the archmage was only casting Mage Armor, and you wanted to save the counterspell attempt for something a little more serious, can you bail out and not counterspell?

 

[Campbell]

If you readied, are you required to counterspell? Or can you forfeit your action? For example, what if the spellcraft check revealed that the archmage was only casting Mage Armor, and you wanted to save the counterspell attempt for something a little more serious, can you bail out and not counterspell?

You do not need to take a readied action if the oppurtunity presents itself. If you have not performed the readied action by the time your turn in the initiative order has come up you act as normal. In the quote from the SRD I've included below, I've bolded the sections that I believe are pertinent to this discussion.

Ready


The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.


Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.


Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger 'if she starts casting a spell.' If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result).


Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger 'if she starts casting a spell'). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn't always work.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Last week, my Druid 10 was the first of any of us to use the counterspell readied action since we started 3.x! Everyone was surprised by the tactic.

On reflection, I have no idea why I memorised Dispel Magic given it is more efficient for a Cleric or Sorcerer/Wizard to prepare/cast (Drd4 v Clr/Sor/Wiz3), but it shut down a summon spell from a succubi and probably saved us some extra grief we didn't need. Mind you, the magic missile from the wizard achieved the same effect on the other succubi when it failed its concentration check.

Unfortunately, you cannot counter the Summon Demon spell-like ability of the succubus. From the SRD, "Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled."

 

[shurai]

Unfortunately, you cannot counter the Summon Demon spell-like ability of the succubus. From the SRD, "Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled."

Ha ha ha! So our only concrete example of somebody actually counterspelling something was, in fact, counter to the rules!

One thing nobody mentioned was the use of spell-completion items (wands, scrolls, etc) for counterspelling. Also, could you use Wish or Miracle to counterspell, since they can simulate almost anything? What about Shadow Evocation and the like? It seems to me that a wizard could use a move-equiv to pull out a scroll/wand of Dispel Magic, then use his standard action to get ready to counterspell. He could then be sure of his ability to counter whatever the target is casting. Not efficient, perhaps, but seemingly effective.

Nevertheless, I think that even if we disagree about how much counterspelling sucks, we can all agree that it is an area of play that could be very interesting and exciting, and ought to be expanded. I mean, how many of us have seen movies or read books in which wizards/sorcererers/jedi have an arcane duel of wits, in which each tries to counter the other? If we could cook up some rules for that, it'd be cool. And by cool, I mean totally sweet.

So, are there any good house rules for counterspelling out there that would help achieve this? If not, does anyone have any suggestions?

-S

 

[Jack Simth]

Yeah. Archmage Sorceror with Improved Counterspelling and Mastery of Counterspelling, with as many high-level spells crammed into different schools as the Caster is capable of (also the appropriet version of Dispel for the level, if possible). Can be done entirely with SRD, shuts down most spellcasters VERY effectively (except for their high-level spells.... but that's what the Dispel is for) to the point of hurting the shut down caster very badly. Takes a while to pull off properly, though. It also permits the Sorceror to effectively cast spells he doesn't know, but only under limited circumstances.

 

[ARandomGod]

Welcome to MADHOUSE!

What he said.

Let me give you the basics of counterspelling. The real basics.

It does not work. The mechanics make it clunky and a waste of time to attempt. If you think counterspelling should be a viable option in your game, I suggest you houserule it to be workable. Possibly with a feat.

Even for the archmage with mastery of counterspelling it's an inefficient waste of his time and resources. I've looked into it extensively. I actually built an archmage sorc with improved counterspell and mastery of counterspelling. It was a waste. The only way to do it well under the current rulesset is to be prescient. Personally I suggest a feat which allows you to do it without the prescient prerequisite.

I think my favorite house feat I've seen so far went something like this:

Prerequisite: Improved Initiative (for acting fast)
As an immediate action you may attempt to counterspell a spell you have recognized being cast (you always get to use spellcraft as a free action whenever you could use it). If you make this attempt you forfiet your next standard action. (Spell cost as standard counterspelling)

Removes the need to ready an action, but still costs you a standard action, costs a feat to achieve. Also works with the improved counterspell feat. It makes counterspelling actually WORK.

 

[shurai]

Prerequisite: Improved Initiative (for acting fast)
As an immediate action you may attempt to counterspell a spell you have recognized being cast (you always get to use spellcraft as a free action whenever you could use it). If you make this attempt you forfiet your next standard action. (Spell cost as standard counterspelling)

Removes the need to ready an action, but still costs you a standard action, costs a feat to achieve. Also works with the improved counterspell feat. It makes counterspelling actually WORK.

Hmm, interesting. This got me to thinking. One of the interesting drawbacks of turn-based play is that it is often difficult to represent the idea of interruption or prevention of actions. When a person "tries to do something" in d20, rarely are they are not prevented or interrupted. They just fail at the attempt by missing a roll or the like. I think, at root, this is a big reason why counterspelling sucks: D&D magic has no concept of an 'interrupt' in the Magic: The Gathering sense of the term.

It could be interesting to approach the problem as a timing mechanism, as this feat does. Maybe a new kind of spell with casting time: free action? Hmm. What an interesting topic!

 

[Veril]

Based on how ineffective Counterspelling is, I've house-ruled that you can counter/dispel a spell in subsequent rounds. Seems to work quite well IMC.
Wizard has a shield up and all you have is magic missiles left as attack spells, move up to him and cast your shield to counter his (touch attack needed). Bang" his spell is countered.

I've found this is much better than doing a targeted dispel at players. When everyone is buffed up, hitting one player with a targeted dispel really weakens them compared to everyone else, and it means they have a lot less fun. I can deal with specific problem spells on an encounter by encounter basis using this mechanic.

 

[Saeviomagy]

3. This happens more frequently than you think and it's [not] limited to being cast on the archmage.

Mastery of counterspelling is treated as spell turning. From spell turning:
"Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster. The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells."

So no, it doesn't work on any spells other than those which are single target and targeting the archmage himself.

Re: smart thing
That's really an odd thing to say. How can the opponent know that his opponent plans to counterspell, much less do it in a spell turning fashion? One of the best things to counterspell is the teleport or plane shift that is the BBEG's escape plan (assuming something like a dimensional anchor failed or was not cast).

Readied actions in general are an obvious thing that an opponent is doing. If you're a wizard, and your opponent appears to be focussed on you and ready to cast a spell, what do YOU think he's doing?

As one example, counterspelling with Mastery of Counterspelling the enemy cleric's greater dispelling is EXTREMELY effective.

Except it doesn't work unless the guy is greater dispelling YOU.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Prerequisite: Improved Initiative (for acting fast)
As an immediate action you may attempt to counterspell a spell you have recognized being cast (you always get to use spellcraft as a free action whenever you could use it). If you make this attempt you forfiet your next standard action. (Spell cost as standard counterspelling)

This is the equivalent of the forgotten realms feat "reactive counterspell", except that RC makes you give up your entire next round. I agree that this feat can make counterspelling worthwhile.

However - it's still far from an effective tactic.