Counterspelling--What's the lowdown?

[Jack Simth]

I suspect that the discrepency is a lack of total clarity: Mastery of Counterspelling doesn't specify wether the Spell Turning must be able to affect the specific instance of the spell used (targeting the archmage - of course, with this style of interpertaion, it could be argued that the Archmage must have Spell Turning up for Mastery of Counterspelling to be effective at all - after all, Spell Turning can't affect a spell if Spell Turning isn't active on the target, now can it?) or be able to affect the spell in general (when targetting something with Spell Turning on it).

 

[Felix]

Saeviomagy,

Dude, easy. I thought I was being polite; please don't let's be snippy.

The argument does hold, depending upon when you apply the "must target person affected by Spell Turning" clause, and how you weight the signifigance of the word "cannot" in Mastery of Counterspelling's:

"If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning, then it is merely counterspelled."

---

• All spells, given circumstances, cannot be affected by Spell Turning.

This is true.

• Some spells, regardless of circumstances, cannot be affected by Spell Turning.

This is also true.


These two truths constitute two sets of spells you can choose from to be affected by the "If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning" clause.

For my Rules reading, I chose the second set of spells that cannot be affected by Spell Turning. You chose the first, and added the requirement that the spells then become able to be affected, by targeting only the Archmage.

But Mastery of Counterspelling does not specify "only spells that can be affected by Spell Turning," it explicitly says "If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning". Small difference, perhaps, but relavant.

---

You disagree with my premisies, but assuming the premisies are correct this argument is a valid one. Call it unsound if you like, but let's despense with the "And wrong" business.

Just in case anyone is wondering, I do not argue this for a person with Spell Turning, only for someone with Mastery of Counterspelling, and then because of the "cannot" clause.

 

[Infiniti2000]

For my Rules reading, I chose the second set of spells that cannot be affected by Spell Turning. You chose the first, and added the requirement that the spells then become able to be affected, by targeting only the Archmage.

Yours and everyone else's. Only Saeviomagy disagrees. Actually, not only does he disagree but he then complains about how badly MoC and counterspelling in general suck. Well, no wonder if you don't read the rules correctly! :\ I mean, if you're gonna be pedantic, why not go all out and point out that Spell Turning doesn't even work? I mean, it says "you as a Target" so that only works for spells with "Target: You", right? Gimme a break.

 

[3d6]

Simple question.
I've been playing D&D for 3 years, I've played every class. Levels 1-32, and I still don't know how Counterspelling works.
Explanations of Improved Counterspelling and Archmage abilities would be appreciated.


I figured it'd be time to learn with the help of EnWorld.




Always strive to be a better gamer.
Cross.

Counterspelling sucks. You're much better off readying an action to cast a damaging spell (fireball etc.) when an opposing caster casts a spell. That way you stop thier spell and deal damage to the caster.

 

[Raduin711]

Right now I'm playing an abjurer variant in eberron with Improved counterspell. It works wonders.

My spellcraft is through the roof, so much so that my DM HATES it when I tell him the result of my spellcraft rolls. =D

Some of you seem to be under the impression that you have to know what spell you expect the opposing spellcaster to cast... you don't. The spellcraft is a free roll, and after the roll you get to decide how you are going to counter it. If you have a dispel magic handy (my variant allows me to sacrifice 4 levels of spells to spontaneously cast a dispel magic) you can just let the dice decide. If you just so happen to have that spell handy, you can completely negate it without fuss. In my case my choices for counterspells are pretty extensive.

For buffs, its often easier to dispel the effect before it gets out of the gate. Once your rival has hasted his allies, you have to try to do an area dispel and not hit your own guys. For attack spells, there is no other time to dispel it.

For some combats, one less fireball on your party could mean the difference between someone living or dying. If you KNOW you're up against another spellcaster, why not counter his spells?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IME, you don't want to use it. I would rather ready an action to blast my opponent with lightning bolt, damaging him and potentially countering his spell, at the same time.

This doesn't work well if your enemy makes his save and then easily makes his Concentration check, though, or if he is immune to that spell, but I don't want to waste an action trying to counter a spell that's not on my list (for the day, if a wizard, and I usually am).

It might be a good tactic against drow - they have a low CR adjustment and SR (and you really hate it when the spell you tried to break their Concentration with was fizzled by SR). Still, there's the risk that they'll cast a spell you don't have.

Some of you seem to be under the impression that you have to know what spell you expect the opposing spellcaster to cast... you don't.

Oh. Oops. Are you sure about that, though? You need to be pretty specific when you ready an action.

Here, I'll post an example question.

Mialee is facing Hennet, the villainous sorcerer. Mialee's initiative comes up, and she decided she wants to counterspell Hennet's next spell. (She has a broader repertoire, so she thinks it can work.)

Hennet casts Bigby's Clenched Fist, a spell that Mialee doesn't have**. She decides, then, to wait until her initiative to cast a spell at Hennet. (Of course, now Cleave, her warforged fighter buddy, is being pounded by the fist.)

** Could she have decided to use a nasty attack spell like Chain Lightning at that point to try to counter Hennet's spell? I think she couldn't, and had to wait until her next initiative. (In any event, unlike using counterspell, using Chain Lightning would probably have damaged Hennet.)

 

[Infiniti2000]

Still, there's the risk that they'll cast a spell you don't have.

With Improved Counterspell or one of the dispel magic spells, that risk is greatly reduced, to almost nonexistent. Now, you might not be able to keep it up forever, but counterspelling the BBEG even just twice will more than likely change the outcome of the battle in your favor.

Oh. Oops. Are you sure about that, though? You need to be pretty specific when you ready an action.

When you ready the counterspell action, you do not know or even need to know what spell your opponent might cast. If you have the same spell and are within range, you may counter it automatically with no chance of failure and no way for your opponent to stop you from countering it. If you have dispel magic or greater dispel magic you can always use that if you do not have the exact same spell (or improved counterspell and the same school), but then you must make a caster level check. Once again, however, your opponent has no say in it at all -- even a ring of counterspells doesn't work because you are not targeting him with the dispel magic. The best thing about counterspelling is that there is no defense. The worst thing is that it costs you an action to nullify someone else's expected action. If they don't take that action (cast a spell), then your action is lost.

 

[Felix]

Hennet casts Bigby's Clenched Fist, a spell that Mialee doesn't have**.

She can use Dispel Magic.

Or she can use her divination magic to better effect to find out what spells Hennet has, then prepare it.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yours and everyone else's. Only Saeviomagy disagrees. Actually, not only does he disagree but he then complains about how badly MoC and counterspelling in general suck. Well, no wonder if you don't read the rules correctly! :\ I mean, if you're gonna be pedantic, why not go all out and point out that Spell Turning doesn't even work? I mean, it says "you as a Target" so that only works for spells with "Target: You", right? Gimme a break.

Personally I think it sucks even if you let the MoC ability work the way you say. I think that, perhaps, if you let the MoC ability retarget any and all spells that he counters, then it would be worth it.

But - it still only works on actual, proper, for-real spellcasters (which, in the average game are a relatively small proportion of foes). It still only works if you ready an action (or lose your whole next go). It still only works if you can see or hear the spellcasting. It still has a high chance of failure, and it still generally puts you into a war of attrition that you WILL LOSE because an opposing spellcaster is typically higher level than you. And you've given up one of your higher level slots (which fuel the use of counterspelling in the first place) to get it, not to mention the other arduous prerequisites. And it's still something that the opposing caster can avoid by simply not casting that turn.

And you're still wrong. The spell writeup says twice, in two different ways that spell turning only affects spells that are hitting you. It's pretty bleeding specific. It's also in the same paragraph as every other restriction on spell turning. Finally the archmage writeup is fairly specific on how its spell turning works - specifically that you have to look at the spell turning rules to see what spells are not affected. Say you run it a different way, I'm fine with that and I think it's a necessary change if counterspelling is going to be at all worthwhile, but we're having a discussion here about the rules - and what you're running is not what the rules say.

 

[Infiniti2000]

And you're still wrong. ... but we're having a discussion here about the rules - and what you're running is not what the rules say.

You can choose to ignore my posts and those of others, so as to not have to respond to any details, but you are still alone in your opinion on the rules. The rest of us agree.