coup de grace too powerful

[kreynolds]

Since when can you not CDG someone if you are prone?

Yeah, I noticed my whole prone attack thing. Brain fart.

Also, if you lose your weapon, why can't you CDG with an unarmed attack?

You could. But it's a damn site safter getting hit with an unarmed attack.

Sure you might not get AS much damage as your weapon, but you are still looking at a Fort save or die.

So you'd just rather be hit with the greataxe then? I'll remember that. Here's a really good one for ya' though. Unarmed strikes deal subdeal damage. So guess what?

 

[Al]

Call me a cynic, but I'm guessing that Dreaddisease had a bad experience with a scythe...

Coup de grace is perfectly balanced, and further- realistic.

As hong has pointed out, if you're asleep, unconscious or whatever, any fool with a weapon can kill you. Six seconds is slightly generous, especially with an AoO thrown in. I'm sure that you could kill a sleeping person in less than one second. Further, as pointed out, six seconds is a long time in melee.
Is it broken? No. If someone is sleeping, you should be able to kill him easily. It would be ridiculous if a man with a huge axe could get a clear shot on a sleepng fighter and not be able to kill him.
The only possible argument against is the sleep/hold person routine. But that's not an argument. If you go through many spells, you can find them to be 'broken'. Color Spray is 'broken' by this logic. Any incapacitating spell is 'broken'. My cleric yesterday used Command: Die is conjunction with the party fighter to take out an enemy with a cdg, so is Command 'broken'. Are you really proposing all incapacitating spells be taken out of the game?

 

[IceBear]

Ya, I have to agree with everyone that said CdG is fine as is. It sounds more like his party is broken than anything else. Why did your *own* sorcerer cast TWO spells on you to get you out of the fight? Sounds like it was a planned assassination that worked to me and that's what's got you upset.

As soon as you went down another PC should have done something to protect you from the CdG as opposed to leaving you there to die.

IceBear

 

[AuraSeer]

Hey look, it's empirical evidence!

The question of timing made me curious. So last night I dug up a styrofoam mannequin head, and spent some time killing it with various swords and knives and implements of destruction.

It never took me more than three seconds to perform a CDG on the fake head. The great majority of the time is used in positioning the weapon; once the tip is on an eye, it takes just a fraction of a second to drive a nice deep hole into the styrofoam. (FTR, three seconds was the time for using a dagger on a prone "victim", whom I had to kneel to reach. The average was even faster.)

Note that I'm a skinny computer geek, with less combat training than a 1st-level fighter. If I can insta-kill a motionless target in half a round, an evil extraplanar Cuisinartbeast will surely be able to do it faster.

 

[Jeremy]

Cuisinart-beast. Heh. Demons everywhere are puffing out their alien-inspired insectoid chests.

 

[Dreaddisease]

The Sorcerer did not cast 2 spells. Only one. SHe cast a spell to incapacitate me so I would not try to prevent them from attacking. I was Charmed by the Demon. Why would CDG be a full round action in the first place. Many of you just seem to be satisfied that during my initiative I can do a full round action and complete it before the next person goes.

I guess I'm changing my position to a Full Round Action should take a Full Round completed on the next round. I cannot see how someone can backup 5 feet and do a full round action and no one has a chance to interrupt that action. To me its the same as a single action without the full move benefit. Stop me if I'm wrong but if you are 10 feet away from someone (no reach weapon) then you can't hit them.

I was under the distinct impression that a difference was made between full round and 1 action to allow for interruption, but I do not see that as the rule in the book, except for magic. Magic is well done in its distinction between when you have 1 action vs full round action. But when you get into non-magical FRA like CDG its almost like a standard action with only a 5 foot step.

Does anyone see my point?

 

[Dreaddisease]

Aura Seer,
Did you happen to simulate two attackers you were defending against while performing this action?

 

[IceBear]

Ok...in your first post you made it sound like the sorcerer Charmed you too.

So, you want a Full Round Action to not occur until just before your next turn? What about the fighter using the full attack option? He doesn't get to attack until next round.

Listen - there are full round actions which basically leave you with only a 5ft step for movement, and full round spells which don't go off until just before your next round. These things are distinct from each other.

IceBear

 

[RigaMortus]

So you'd just rather be hit with the greataxe then? I'll remember that. Here's a really good one for ya' though. Unarmed strikes deal subdeal damage. So guess what?

Here is a good one for you as well...

There is a rule that allows you to do normal damage with an unarmed strike at a -4 penalty to hit (PHB pg 135 under the "Dealing Subdual Damage" heading)... Guess what? I know we went over this before BUT... That -4 penalty to hit doesn't matter since, you guessed it, you get an automatic hit with a CDG.

 

[IceBear]

Aura Seer,
Did you happen to simulate two attackers you were defending against while performing this action?

The thing is...he's NOT defending against any attackers. He's lowered his defences (hence the AoOs).

If you want to simulate him being distracted, force a concentration check like with spellcasting.

Anyway, CdG isn't SOOOOOO much better than the assassin's special attacks as it's only useful when someone is helpless. In a well oiled party this shouldn't occur too often.

IceBear