Coup de Grace

[Vicar In A Tutu]

One thing I liked regarding damage, death and hp in 3E, was the potential of killing someone outright with a single blow if the enemy was completely helpless. The classic case in my campaign was a rogue infiltrating a brigand lair, sneaking from tent to tent and slitting the throats of several (or even all of) the enemies before retreating or being discovered. (Note however that I didn't like that the coup de grace rules made the 2nd level cleric spell hold person far too powerful, since the target of the spell was paralyzed, thus helpless, and very often slain by the next attack).

I was reading the 4E PHB lite, and was dissapointed to read that a coup de grace in 4E will only allow you to deal maximum weapon damage, with no chance of killing someone or something outright. How do people feel about this? The old coup de grace rule was something that aided my players in "believing" in the abstract hp system.

 

[deathdonut]

I definately feel your concern here.

I would probably end up house-ruling quite a bit of this. Keep in mind that the abstraction of hit points can include things like luck, intuition and even "ability to wake up before the dagger falls". That given, I see no problem with letting a paragon-tier fighter in a coma die to one swing of a level 5 mage with an axe.

 

[Stalker0]

We may not know the full extent of how this works yet, stay tuned!!

 

[Jack99]

Pretty sure that piece of info is merely speculation.

 

[Henry]

That's actually very reminiscent of 1st edition AD&D; in combat, you could only deal double max damage to someone who was paralyzed or helpless; out of combat, you could slit their throat as you wished.

 

[AZRogue]

That's actually very reminiscent of 1st edition AD&D; in combat, you could only deal double max damage to someone who was paralyzed or helpless; out of combat, you could slit their throat as you wished.

I think Henry may be on to something. It may be that in combat situations, in the heat of battle, you can only do max damage and out of combat you can just slit their throats.

I don't know. If they don't include some kind of effective Coup De Grace rule in the game (one of 3E's best features) I will be disappointed and definitely add it back in.

 

[catsclaw227]

(Note however that I didn't like that the coup de grace rules made the 2nd level cleric spell hold person far too powerful, since the target of the spell was paralyzed, thus helpless, and very often slain by the next attack).

Yea -- me too.

We had a CdG against a mini-boss in my game on Saturday, because a hold person save failed and the fighter did full power attack barbarian rage damage and the mini-boss had to roll a 20 to make the Fort Save.

Bummer for sure. </threadjack>

 

[Harshax]

I was reading the 4E PHB lite, and was dissapointed to read that a coup de grace in 4E will only allow you to deal maximum weapon damage, with no chance of killing someone or something outright. How do people feel about this? The old coup de grace rule was something that aided my players in "believing" in the abstract hp system.

I assume that the rule (speculation or not), is meant for combat only - Assuming that combatants must split their concentration between delivering a death blow, and avoiding enemies. At the very least, I'd add a houserule that if you want to deliver a true 'coup de grace', you give all other combatants Combat Advantage over you (or whatever it is called).

I certainly wouldn't use this rule for out of combat situations. If a rogue snuck into a tent to 'slit throats', I would compare the rogue's maximum damage against, say, the targets CON score. If the damage exceeds it, then the target is dead.

Incidentally, does this mean you automatically do full damage against inanimate objects, when you attack them?

 

[AZRogue]

Yea -- me too.

We had a CdG against a mini-boss in my game on Saturday, because a hold person save failed and the fighter did full power attack barbarian rage damage and the mini-boss had to roll a 20 to make the Fort Save.

Bummer for sure. </threadjack>

One of the reasons why I think Henry may be right and they may be taking it back to how it was in 1E. If they do that I won't have a problem, as long as you can, under other circumstances, still do an effective Coup De Grace. I don't know. Hopefully we haven't seen everything regarding this rule.

 

[catsclaw227]

That's actually very reminiscent of 1st edition AD&D; in combat, you could only deal double max damage to someone who was paralyzed or helpless; out of combat, you could slit their throat as you wished.

You are right, and I have a problem with this, even though I am not sure how to solve it. If I am moving to slit someone's throat, am I in combat?

On one hand there should be rules for the "crossbow to the back... don't move or you are dead" moments and the mid-level fighter who could care less about two or three crossbows at point blank range (figuratively, not RAW - 30ft) because he could just take the hits and kick some booty.

But what, then, constitutes a CdG and when is it applied? There are a lot of moments where the helpless condition comes up, but is CdG appropriate in all cases? And looking at my example above, when is it appropriate to apply CdG rules when you have the drop on a PC and they are surrounded or being held by spears or crossbow bolts?